Hand to hand? Are you training?

[1Admin]

I would say that 99% of the SF guys that are trained in the military never use their hand-to-hand skills and it is probably closer to 100%. If you let someone get that close to you and laying hands on that someone is your last option, you are not real smart to begin with. Some guys don't even carry a knife unless it is on a leatherman or gerber tool.

If your using some form of hands-on combat to stay in shape, I'm all for it. Much better exercise than running and destroying your knees and hips. In my opinion though, if you think being a good fighter will make up for poor gun fighting skills, stupidity, or piss poor planning you are probably going to die. The days of fist fighting and everyone goes home as friends is pretty much over.

Law enforcement is a different deal. They are required to get close and handcuff or impair someone while using minimal force. Most here are not police officers and have no reason to be in someone's grill. Hand-to-hand ranks on my list somewhere near the bottom, probably below learning how to mountain climb and thats even if I lived in Florida (where there are no mountains to climb).

WWSD? ;)

Totally disagree, sorry.

I've seen, and created so much cross over from weapons training to H2H, h2h to weapons training that I can't even remember. Not saying "created" in the sense of haughty look at me crap, probably the word "realized" or "discovered" would fit better.

Let's not forget also the confidence building factor.

Why teach rappelling? How many soldiers will probably ever rappel? CONFIDENCE BUILDING.

Let's remember we aren't for the most part talking about crazy katas that have no place in a real fight that isn't choreographed.

Now for me personally, I abhor violence, would never hit someone, or kick them, knee them, choke them out, crush their trachea, break their limbs off, that's stuff's icky!

LMAO

Hell, the boy likes depriving people of oxygen more than I do....

[610Alpha]

@Boltgun308 - what we are all saying is that there is a hole in your logic. If you don't get H2H training we don't care one iota. None of us are trying to get you into a Hand 2 Hand pyramid scheme or anything. :)

What happens when you run out of ammo...that firearm is going to be a club? Do you know the best way to use it without ammo? Have you trained in weapon retention? We aren't talking about in a SHTF scenario, you could be confronted at anytime, unless of course you are on a deserted island then I would suggest you look up and watch out for those falling coconuts... LOL. Just some food for thought.

[boltgun308]

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

My last post on this thread and not to disrespect anyone- There is nothing wrong with training in H2H but I think that most will agree that on this forum 70% or more are probably 40 years of age or older. H2H is not an old mans game, and to start learning what is essentially a lifestyle change at that age is very hard. I personally don't heal up like I used to and my reflexes are not as fast as they once were. If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

[610Alpha]

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

When I hear my kids scream I don't grab a weapon I just come running. I didn't say a gun wouldn't have worked did I. We don't know where, if at all, a gun was located on the premises or not. If LEO's miss 70% of the time then so do bad guys. Most likely as soon as the father burst into the room the perp turned away from the daughter. Most likely the father would have still survived a GS and still done what needed to be done...heard too many stories of guys hopped up on PCP and other stuff that don't stop on the first or second GSW. A parent hopped up on adrenaline from their screaming child probably won't stop on the first or second GSW either.

I don't think anyone hear wants to be Tito they just want to be PREPARED.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Most of you guys are training to impair, subdue, handcuff, etc. In a real SHTF scenario, once you subdue, then what? I can gain that distance you mentioned thats whatWhat are you going to do with them? No jails, no police, now what?
I have a plan and we train on it, what are you gonna do just eliminate everyone? Seems that was discussed here not to long ago in a podcast about what to do with folks in situations that dont always call for killing

Most of the scenarios presented here could be stopped before the first punch is thrown by being aware of what is going on around you. Your not even being realistic about what really happens in the world. Not here in America nor abroad when things went bad.

99% of the other people can simply live to fight another day. Unrealistic, I work and have worked way to many things to know this isnt true
The best fighters in the world get injured and post SHTF is not the time for injuries. Agreed and avoid if you can just like shootings, avoid IF you can but pratice anyway. Shooters get hurt too, alot, look at the controversial florida shooter, got his .. handed to him with his hand already on his gun by a "kid"! Wouldnt have given up that back and gotten that head slammed if he had know some BJJ or even basic wrestling
Gain distance from the threat and either turn your cheek or eliminate

gain distance by how? running? same logic used on the being old comment, your too slow and too this n that..... guess you should just lay down huh? Yep I cant gain distance like i could it takes me 17 minutes to make my 2 miles now over the 13, and I cant do the 5 in 30minutes anymore, guess i should just quit running

Wasnt that long ago when a pirate was dispatched with a blade when the weapon failed. I've worked for years side by side with alot of tabs (i'm not nor never was one for the record, they earned it i didnt) and dont know where you are coming from. Our experiences are vastly different.
I'm well over 40 and closer to 50 so thats not gonna wash and there is truth to the healing statement but your eyes are going too there sniper. Over 40?Guess they shouldnt learn to shoot then either. Guess I shouldnt try and learn that MilDot master huh? That logic is flawed. I hope i never quit learning and am always a "rookie or noob in something.
Well rounded in all skills and dont think the jab about climbing slipped by either. Not all things can be handled with the gun, just as Tueller drill shows year after year. You talk as though you are done or just one sided with being a shooter, wouldnt have thought it coming from you
Train in everything, continue to learn, don't think it cant happen to you

[Patriot Prepper]

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

My last post on this thread and not to disrespect anyone- There is nothing wrong with training in H2H but I think that most will agree that on this forum 70% or more are probably 40 years of age or older. H2H is not an old mans game, and to start learning what is essentially a lifestyle change at that age is very hard. I personally don't heal up like I used to and my reflexes are not as fast as they once were. If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

I am 60 years old and am just as fast and my reflexes are better than most 20 year olds. Age is not a factor if you have been training all your life - you do not lose that much speed. Age can however, prolong the healing process requiring more days between an intense workout. It can also affect endurance.

We once trained an 86 year old women. When she started classes, she could barley walk. After a few months she was kicking and we had her breaking boards. I have seen masters so old that had to be carried to the mat. When they got on the mat they were like 20 year olds. Your body is an incredible machine. If you treat it right and train it, it can do incredible things even when old.

I am not saying that an older guy is better than a younger man, only that age does not do as much damage as you might think. The loss of speed is relatively small. The biggest loss is in recovery and endurance.

I also think that an old person needs training just as much if not more than someone old. Many old people become weak and frail from a lack of exercise. Martial arts training is great at building up someone's body. Also if an old person is weak, they can be targeted by criminals. Being able to defend themselves could possibly save their lives. Also an old person can take a younger person by surprise. They never expect the old guy to react fast with power. The bad guy is taken off guard.

Keep in mind that many martial arts techniques can be employed with a bladed weapon like a knife. I can teach knife fighting techniques to someone who already knows how to fight much easier than someone who has no training or skill. The H2H principles I teach will flow smoothly into the use of a bladed weapon. A bladed weapon is a great equalizer.

At real close range, I can use a knife much easier and faster than most people could use a gun. I think it is foolish to judge martial arts according to age.

By the way Tito Ortiz is not the best example of a martial artist, there are much better MMA fighters out there. Don't much care for him as a person or a fighter. He is conditioned but lacks skill in many areas.

Martial arts is a great skill for a prepper, or any person to have. That is hard to deny. Whether it is worth the effort to learn is a personal decision. But to be critical of those who take an interest in improving their self defense ability is not real sensible.

[xdpatriot]

If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

This is my last post on this thread as well, not to hurt anyone's feelings:

"SHOOTER" was just a movie.

[Cimarron]

No I am not, and all those Japanese/Chinese names are above my comprehension of what their fighting style actually does. I have very little training in hand to hand so what would be a sensible/practical form of hand to hand be?

I realize the answer would be highly dependant on what is an available school in the area but what would be some good basics to keep in mind?

[1Admin]

We had a guy in class for about a year before he moved that was 49. He was a judoka. Looked just slightly chubby but really wasn't. I've never seen a grown older fellow do cartwheels. He also had some of the best throws I've ever seen. I liked standing up with him cause he could pull a throw out of thin air. Helped me learn a little more and more importantly, how to avoid some throws.

I guess I'm still in the vaunted 30 percentile, but I'm not hanging up my Gi, belt, fight shorts or rubber knife in a year or two. :)

I'm wondering why even the army decided that the karate chop stance from the 70's and 80's was bogus and went to a problem who's core
is essentially the Grace Combatives cirriculum?

Got a DVD a few months back called "Top Fighter" highlighted the Army's Top Fighter competition. For most purposes, watching the fights was a Jui Jitsu clinic.

All I can say is better make and KEEP a LOT of space. Some of the people I've met and trained with could take your weapon half a room away..... "I submit unto you, the fight will be what the fight will be."

[boltgun308]

Matt: Read your jab comment and really did not know what you were talking about until I ran across your thread about rock climbing. Was not an intentional jab. I did laugh though. You're not taking SHTF ball room dancing are you? But anyway, I apologize if you were offended. I did not see or remember your thread.

Patriot: I agree with your comment on Titi Ortiz, he just came to mind when I was typing that thread.

I have been involved in H2H for years. Never utilized it much and it was my career. My intent to this thread was probably not clear. If you do not train in martial arts where you act without thinking you WILL revert back to what you know and that is swinging fists. I have seen many guys come out of the gate with textbook moves, get their nose flattened, and then start street fighting like they had never had any training. MA is a lifestyle, not a weekend warrior gig. It is probably some of the best exercise available in my opinion, especially ground work (grappling), but it can also be a dangerous false confidence. Nobody is ten foot tall and bullet proof and MA does not make you a super warrior. 90% of any true warrior is mindset. The skills are just frosting. If you have the will, you will most likely make it happen.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

No I am not, and all those Japanese/Chinese names are above my comprehension of what their fighting style actually does. I have very little training in hand to hand so what would be a sensible/practical form of hand to hand be?

I realize the answer would be highly dependant on what is an available school in the area but what would be some good basics to keep in mind?

I'll e-mail you

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Well I'm starting over. I'm taking a break from Wing Chun and getting into Aikido. It got me to wondering if people on this site and others like it are doing any hand to hand combat training along with their tactical training(if any). If so, what are you studying?

Started a combatives class last night. We worked knife fighting and it was awesome! Arms are very sore from the strikes I took. The women in the class are tough as woodpecker lips, smile all pretty at you then stab you to death LOL. I will be continuing this as they cover many things each week like stick fighting, systemia, weapon retention techniques, muy tai, force on force air soft etc etc. They are also looking for a suitable place for live fire training too.
Checked the ego at the door, told'em i didnt know anything was here to learn and took my licks and gave some back. Sweated my guts out trying to stay moving on the lateral and forward/backward. We had one exercise where you were not allowed to move only block and that was the hardest thing i've ever done after 29yrs of movement in knife fighting. It also re-enforced my belief of you had better move and this is the last place i want to be is in a open handed vs knife fight. The instructor was great and didnt have the "my way or highway" attitude and we all learned from one another. Can't wait for the next one and with current ammo shortages there is no excuse for not being in a class or another class cause they hadnt took that yet!

[WiseOwl]

Started a combatives class last night. We worked knife fighting and it was awesome! Arms are very sore from the strikes I took. The women in the class are tough as woodpecker lips, smile all pretty at you then stab you to death LOL. I will be continuing this as they cover many things each week like stick fighting, systemia, weapon retention techniques, muy tai, force on force air soft etc etc. They are also looking for a suitable place for live fire training too.
Checked the ego at the door, told'em i didnt know anything was here to learn and took my licks and gave some back. Sweated my guts out trying to stay moving on the lateral and forward/backward. We had one exercise where you were not allowed to move only block and that was the hardest thing i've ever done after 29yrs of movement in knife fighting. It also re-enforced my belief of you had better move and this is the last place i want to be is in a open handed vs knife fight. The instructor was great and didnt have the "my way or highway" attitude and we all learned from one another. Can't wait for the next one and with current ammo shortages there is no excuse for not being in a class or another class cause they hadnt took that yet!

Thats awesome Bro Namath! Once I move and/or finally get into a more concrete home in the next couple of months I am going to look for a class to take in the area we settle. Lots of Tae Kwan Doodoo round here and wannabe MMA.
Growing up my mom taught Wing Chun and Muay Thai. She actually taught self defense to a couple of police departments here in the metro area.
I grew up taking Ishin Ryu (sp) and Karasuto Nomechi Do. My hand to hand was in the "streets and playgrounds" then grew into the clubs and parties.

I wish I could take Aikido but thats in ATL and its very high priced and far. Not only do I want to exert stress from the job and wife/kids but I want to see what my pain threshold is. As a young man I could throw and dish but thats been at least 4 years. I am 10 times stronger now but maybe 10-20% slower.

I could go down towards LD3 neck of the woods, I know them boys down there know that DirtRoad'njitsu. Beat ya down with a red training AR.... LOL

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I could go down towards LD3 neck of the woods, I know them boys down there know that DirtRoad'njitsu. Beat ya down with a red training AR.... LOL

Lemme find out he has even a training AR

We worked muay thai stick fighting basics this week and after practicing this morning I finally got my "Heaven and Earth 6" down. We also did some basic pad boxing, whew its hard for me to do what someone tells me cause I've been going so long with just looking for an opening and taking it that having to follow instructions kicked my behind. Ole dog new trick thing ya know. Got Sharpshooter n company to go with me and they are gonna be joining now.
Didn't have me no proper fighting sticks so went to Lowes and got me some poplar dowel 1inch and cut them down to 28 inches and they work fine though they are heavier than the bamboo ones sold. Thank God I didn't buy the oak that were much denser/heavier or I woulda died out bout halfway thru class.
Shoulders and biceps got a good workout as did the ego LOL

[WiseOwl]

I took Kali (sp) years ago. Thats those duel weld bamboo type sticks. There was even a few kata style combos.
Hard thing is during practice you get hit in the knuckles all the time

But like any other stick weapon, they can be taken away just as easy as you can be beat down with them