Discussion of groups

[Bull]

I agree with most of Rmpl and Protus' comments. And along the lines of what monkeybird said, a few weeks ago, I went camping with one of my best friends. We lived together when we were in the Coast Guard. Did search and rescues, did LE, worked, lived, partied together. Nearly together constantly. Well I haven't spent that much time with him in years. kept in touch and spent occasional weekends together. He freaking drove me nuts. He was going through a real stressful time, which is why I invited him to come with me. "Just blow everything else off and come clear your head." So I didn't clear my head, but got completely wound up all weekend. We were not on the same page about anything, and I had already planned and figured out how I would take care of all the details. He wanted to change everything up, and the times when he did, he screwed things up. So I think that people change enough so that even if you know someone, and have lived with them, unless you continually spend time together, and evolve and deal with your daily lives together, there is a good chance that you will have some friction. You obviously have a foundation to pull from, in order to resolve your problems, but the point is that there will definitely be challenges and the more time you can spend together, maintaining group cohesion, the better you will be for a long term survival type, banding together, situation.
I think the BOL is a major obstacle. Your group would have to agree on a BOL, then buy it, and maintain it. If everyone didn't want to move to, or move near, the BOL, then the problems become more difficult. I think all members of the group living in close proximity to each other, and the BOL, would be a huge advantage, if not a necessity.
I also think that everyone should be basically self sufficient: have enough food and supplies for themselves and their families. But the main purpose of the group is for security, efficiency, and economic purposes. What I mean is, if everything is done correctly, you could maintain security much better with a group. You could be much more efficient working together to grow and harvest food and livestock, hunt, build, acquire water, firewood, etc. Economics are similar, but by utilizing different skills and knowledge to solve problems and trade services. Those are the advantages I see in a group. So everyone has to bring enough to the table so to speak.

It would be a problem to have moochers as well as tyrants.

[Cimarron]

My family live 1700 miles away, I'm pretty sure they are not coming.

My wife's family (parents, brother) are going to be here but they will be of little help.

My children are 14, 11 and 7.

I have no doubt I can not go it alone. I HAVE to find someone/people to join with.

If I can find a group, they will be my family, my 'kin'

Survival will be our bond. Hunger and security our incentive.

And, if it works out that they are Christians. Then they are already my family by blood.

They are my brothers and sisters by the blood of Jesus Christ!

[ibetiny]

My family and I were in a group that was just beginning. That lasted about as long as it too the ink to dry on the buy in list. The group had a buy in list that was 6 pages single spaced. 4 full pages dealt with weapons, ammo, and op\lp and patrolling. Only 1\4 page dealt with food storage\crop growing. Didn't take me long to split.

Now I have contact with 3 families in my area and meet with them occasionally. Since we are all within 25 miles or so, we decided not to preposition supplies. (partly due to a recent lack of a good BOL) If we could find a good BOL or someone with some livable land nearby we would probably make a more cohesive and binding group. If there is someone in the lake Ozark region who wishes to discuss mutual aid let me know!!!!

Anyway, my experience with groups makes me shy away from anything too structured. Support spiritually, group garden\canning, classes, help with physical labor, security, all can be done with a loose mutual aid pact. You could throw in some emergency scenarios and decide where to meet and what to bring without having a binding contract. If you get a core group-within-a-group then you can go as far as you are comfortable with.

The vast majority of scenarios the period of "living together for security" will be at most 6 or 8 months before you adjust to a new normal and people start to spread out. (just how long do you think the zombie hordes will last as a cohesive force before someone takes them out?) That being said, most true Christians will do fairly well together. Just give everyone some privacy and the ones who are least at ease will be the first ones to strike out on their own. Probably near by, and probably still friendly to you, you now have allies nearby.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if your ready yourself (as much as you can), then assimilating into a group should not be that difficult. I would love to be able to get weekend classes, camp out with the group, do patrolling\ambush practice, raise my own goats\chickens\fish\emu\chinchillas\lions\bald eagles\whales or whatever tastes good. But I haven't found that group yet. Till I do, I will be content with what God has let me do, and I will make it work.

[monkeybird]

My family and I were in a group that was just beginning. That lasted about as long as it too the ink to dry on the buy in list. The group had a buy in list that was 6 pages single spaced. 4 full pages dealt with weapons, ammo, and op\lp and patrolling. Only 1\4 page dealt with food storage\crop growing. Didn't take me long to split.

Now I have contact with 3 families in my area and meet with them occasionally. Since we are all within 25 miles or so, we decided not to preposition supplies. (partly due to a recent lack of a good BOL) If we could find a good BOL or someone with some livable land nearby we would probably make a more cohesive and binding group. If there is someone in the lake Ozark region who wishes to discuss mutual aid let me know!!!!

Anyway, my experience with groups makes me shy away from anything too structured. Support spiritually, group garden\canning, classes, help with physical labor, security, all can be done with a loose mutual aid pact. You could throw in some emergency scenarios and decide where to meet and what to bring without having a binding contract. If you get a core group-within-a-group then you can go as far as you are comfortable with.

The vast majority of scenarios the period of "living together for security" will be at most 6 or 8 months before you adjust to a new normal and people start to spread out. (just how long do you think the zombie hordes will last as a cohesive force before someone takes them out?) That being said, most true Christians will do fairly well together. Just give everyone some privacy and the ones who are least at ease will be the first ones to strike out on their own. Probably near by, and probably still friendly to you, you now have allies nearby.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if your ready yourself (as much as you can), then assimilating into a group should not be that difficult. I would love to be able to get weekend classes, camp out with the group, do patrolling\ambush practice, raise my own goats\chickens\fish\emu\chinchillas\lions\bald eagles\whales or whatever tastes good. But I haven't found that group yet. Till I do, I will be content with what God has let me do, and I will make it work.

Was the group with the 4 page list a real group, or someone with an economic scheme? Did everyone have to contribute the exact same thing? How was a leader chosen?

That's what bothers me about groups. Anyone can start a group the the sole purpose of enriching themselves and lording it over others. How do you tell the difference?

[Lowdown3]

How does one "enrich themself" in a survival group? Not picking on you MB, just wanting to hear more about this.

[ibetiny]

@monkeybird Everyone would contribute a small amount every month about 50.00, that money would be spent on large ticket items that one person would have trouble getting by themselves. 3 people made the decision on what to buy and when, the list was put out for everyone to look at and the gear was located at the BOL. Since we knew how many families in the group and what the Items on the list cost, we knew the money was being spent properly. If you had real hardship you were excused but everyone in the group was notified. Too many hardships and you were out. To be honest 50.00 a month is not much and they did have nice gear to use. However I do see the potential for abuse.

[1Admin]

IB- every FAMILY would contribute $50. or $50. PER PERSON. I.e, the family that had 5 people had to drop $250. per month?

"Big ticket items" means different things to different people. Group use stuff? NVG's, upgrades to the BOL? A group food supply?

The problem I've always found is that once ANY dollars change hands, no matter for what, how little, etc. the relationship CHANGES.

Yet money HAS to be involved at some point in time. I've seen groups wherein one person flitted the bill for training materials, targets, etc. and HOPED that others would step up to the plate and chip a couple dollars in to help, only to be left feeling used and abused later when no one did. Later they instigated a small fee to help cover the costs of the materials.

Money is a weird thing among people- sometimes when people pay money towards something, they will VALUE it more. Other times they will assume that gives them license to lord over it, abuse it.

In general, you don't see a lot of groups doing "communal" type setups for this reason. If the early church couldn't make it work in the book of Act (Annais and Sapphira SP) then I doubt any of us can.

However, costs have to be covered and people shouldn't act stupid about paying their share IMO. "Takers" rarely last long in a real group, they show themselves quickly and get weeded out or pushed out.

[monkeybird]

How does one "enrich themself" in a survival group? Not picking on you MB, just wanting to hear more about this.

The survival movement has grown significantly, particularly in the last few years. It would not take much to play on peoples fears or insecurities in order to get money out of them. All one has to do is look at some of the ads for survival related material.

Any group should be entered into after much thought and investigation. Just paying $$ every month and letting someone else decide how the money is spent is just plain stupid. Obviously here are people who would like to do just that, but I wonder just how much of a group they would have.

For any group to work all must contribute and be aware of the finances. Every individual (not family) should pay a share for the BOL, and every person should be on the deed. Monthly maintenance fees should be paid so that the BOL is maintained. Large purchases should be discussed by the entire adult group, with each person being assessed their share in the purchase of the item.

The group should have elected leaders, which changes every few years. (yes I know, it sounds like a government). The treasurer should be elected and books kept. The books MUST be audited regularly.

Groups should have rules and regulations. These should be fair and open to the entire group discussion. Anyone wanting to join an existing group must sign as to their willingness to follow them.

Work responsibilities must be assigned to everyone. Period.

Yes, money does change a relationship. But that's a good thing. Money is collected prior to being spent!

Communes do not work and never have unless it's a dictatorship. Group members should be accountable for building their own shelters or family can live as units.

Just my thoughts.

[Lowdown3]

I've met groups throughout the U.S. both real, long time group, those just getting started and some of which never get past what I call the "beer and pizza" stage. I.e, get together with a couple buds over beer and pizza and talk about doing stuff that never gets done.

Anywhoo, in all those examples- and it's "more than a few"- I've only found ONE group that made the "everyone pitch in and buy land" deal work. And this was essentially a pretty tight knit church group of 30 years that bought land.

I'm not saying I am rich, rolling it, etc. but you'll find that the vast majority of folks preparing out there are NOT rich. I think because I seem to have a lot people ASSume I'm rich. Not the case, just have the benefit of a lot of TIME involved and doing a little at a time REGULARLY over time does build up. In 25 years of preparing their has been maybe 4-5 years where we made more than $30K a year.

So between the lack of long term trust and then the fact that it's hard enough to get $25. towards targets and training materials from like minded people, let alone get them to go in $20K on some land, I've come to realize the "let's get a bunch of people together and buy land" fantasy is just that- a fantasy. As I said, one group made it work, but truly this is an extraordinary group and I'm sure they had their problems as everyone else does.

What's more common is that one member will have some land and will invite other group members to come to his place. That can work but it also is rife with problems.

And for the talk of people getting ripped off, I've found in the examples of people actually doing this that I have found, that 9 times out of 10, it's the property owner that gets the short end of the stick. Truly they have "more to lose" than the person that stashes 9 buckets there as an "insurance policy."

[protus]

well what if they have "massive preps " LD ;) LOL
this thread is getting some good and varied outlooks on groups.

[monkeybird]

The land owner is usually the leader, for good or bad! As an example, I believe your abilities and knowledge to be real. (i.e. not just forum talent) Were you to form a group of people, would you automatically be the leader? Suppose group members contributed more in equipment and supplies than the value of the land. I guess what I'm getting at is that those who agree to be a member of the landowner's group will be subject to the owners rules.

If in my fantasy, if a group of team 6 seals as me to be a member of their survival group, I shut up and do what ever they told me to do to survive. If bubba ask me to be a group member I'd certainly want to know his abilities and be able to trust his judgement and then question him at every turn.

[Lowdown3]

MB- thanks. But I'm more the "bubba" than the seal ;)

Well it's not that if someone has more experience or more training than you, that means you have to shut up and not offer input. That's not the case. I've found only one group run in a manner that I would remotely call "autocratic."

But in the same token, the "let's vote on everything" deal never works either. Most of those never get off of square 1.

You have to have a leader, without a doubt. He/she should be elected. They do not necessarily have to know everything, and it's perfectly o.k. -even good- that they admit that they don't know everything.

Also, I think both authority and responsibility can get easily lost in committees. The wife and I always joke "let's bring that up to the toilet paper committee." Even with two people, the ability to pass the buck and or the failure to act because they wanted to be sure 100% of everyone thought it was a good idea (good luck with that) is there.

Above all a leader should be flexible where possible. Stuff's gonna happen, someone is always gonna throw a monkey in the wrench, plans will change. You have to be able to flow with it. That doesn't mean things aren't organized, plans aren't made, etc. It just means stuff happens and sometimes you have to "happen" with it.

As to the question of whether the landowner should somehow automatically become the group leader. That's a hard one.

To be honest, most of the people I've met that have actually bought land, set up a retreat, started living it, etc. are the types that would make good leaders. Why? Because it takes someone who is willing to step outside the box, move past fears of leaving an area they know, changing jobs, schools, lifestyles, etc. Now that doesn't mean that anybody with some land would make a good leader though.

While the possibility is there for a landowner to "lord over" people, it rarely happens from what I've seen. More times than not they are the ones getting the blunt of the crap. From 20 something wives pitching fits and instigating trouble because they've watched too much reality TV and think that's how life really is, to having a home partially burned down and then having the person change the story to avoid any responsibility in the action.

And I understand what you mean with the last statement. And you don't seem like the person who would do this that way, but it's worth mentioning for others.

I'd certainly want to know his abilities and be able to trust his judgement and then question him at every turn.

Their are certain things that should be "questioned" without a doubt. However this can easily go too far.

I remember at a hunting camp I was a part of one time, we were adding a firewood shed to the place. Now in truth this hunting camp might have proven to be used as a BOL later so in the back of my mind I was always thinking SHTF use and most of the others using the hunting camp were also. So the guy that owned the place wanted the firewood shed in a certain spot, roughly 25 yards away from the house. The house was an old wood framed house. One fellow, despite the fact that he didn't own crap started arguing for the firewood shed to be put right next to -actually touching- the house. The fellows real reason for wanting it there- he was flippin LAZY and didn't want to walk a couple yards over. He made quite a stink about it, and more than a few were ready to give in to him just cause of his crybabying. The shed was a semi permanent thing, did the guy that actually ended up "leaving" the hunting lease have any right to be such an arse about it's location? Nope, none whatsoever. His feelings were taken into consideration but common sense in that having 3 cords of wood right next to a wood framed house would not be a good idea for WILDFIRES plus the insect considerations weren't thought of at all.

See we often think in our own perspective, what's good for me, what makes sense to me, etc. However their is often a "bigger picture" that sometimes folks don't see or haven't thought about. To be honest I've been to a pile of retreats, probably close to 2 dozen, I mean real retreats. Maybe 2 of them seem to have thought out anything in relation to security. Most everything was thought out and laid out for convenience, aesthetics, etc. Those things are important but the first and foremost consideration a survival retreat should follow is security IMO.

Also, their is a right way and a wrong way to "question him" IMO.

The right way might sound like this-

"Hey Bill, I listen to what you said about the food plots at the hunting camp when you talked to everyone. I wanted to talk to you privately about that. Is their any reason why we aren't using buckwheat instead of rye grass?"

The wrong way might be-

"Bill, we are all here in this meeting discussing feed plots and you think we need to use buckwheat? Why? Where the hell did you come with that info? I have a friend's cousin's next door neighbor's aunt that has lived in New York City his whole life, he said we should use rye grass here at our retreat in southern Idaho. Your wrong and your gonna screw everything up for everyone."

LOL, a little over the top yes?

We all want to be right, but we should seek to get together, find out the motivations, reasoning behind someone thinking a certain way. Some people will think of things that you didn't. We don't all have "all the answers", but the attitude should be- "we can find the answers together."

Just my ramblings.

[Rmplstlskn]

I've come to realize the "let's get a bunch of people together and buy land" fantasy is just that- a fantasy.

Yes, it does seem a fantasy... And I am prone to DREAM above the reality, but I still always hold out hope... For I have seen in the past "miraculous" provisions arrive JUST IN TIME (not on OUR time), but not at the "buy land for a retreat" level... But I do believe, in faith, that our Father WILL PROVIDE for His Children, His Son's Bride, in the bad days that Scripture describes, in a miraculous, can only come from Him, way... I also believe Scripture when it shows us that the FIRST Exodus was to be an ensample for those who will go through the SECOND Exodus, the one so GREAT that conversation will be to those who went through that one rather than the ones who left Egypt... So it must be something impressive...

This is why the Festival of YHWH, called Sukkot (Tabernacles) is so cool... It's purpose is multifaceted, but a primary thing is that it teaches WILDERNESS SKILLS, for one is to CAMP OUT for 8 days. And to learn how to camp PROPERLY, for it says that YHWH will walk through the CAMP, so one had better have a LATRINE OUTSIDE the camp and the camp CLEAN... But I digresss... back to the point...

If many of us believe themselves to be "Children of Light," and we know Scripture TEACHES preparedness and survival, then we also BELIEVE that YHWH will open doors to His Children when it is time... And it may not be time yet... And what I THINK would be cool (covenant communities) maybe be far from what the Father intends... But I know as long as I keep prepping, keep learning, keep getting into better shape, keep fellowshipping, and above all, keep close to my Elohim (God), then I will be where I am supposed to be when the time comes, and I will see the provisions manifest themselves as He wills...

I see others have also posted how futile it would be to try to survive what may soon be coming without GROUP load-bearing, so I think many of us agree that some form of GROUP is a good thing, but making it WORK seems to be the issue (where the FLESH man often overpowers the SPIRIT man)...

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

But in the same token, the "let's vote on everything" deal never works either. Most of those never get off of square 1.

You have to have a leader, without a doubt. He/she should be elected. They do not necessarily have to know everything, and it's perfectly o.k. -even good- that they admit that they don't know everything.

Also, I think both authority and responsibility can get easily lost in committees.

Yes, besides the problem of having/finding/buying VIABLE land, the POWER STRUGGLE always seems to rear its ugly head. We have a local gun club, run by gun owners, that can't even function properly without constant personality battles within the Board of Directors even... So being "conservative" or a "Tea Party" offers little improvement upon government...

Or, everything is "democratic" that "mobacracy" results and NOTHING gets done, or the MAJORITY rules over the MINORITY, right or wrong... So I know of what you describe...

This is why I think it so important to be "yoked together" with those of the same sprirtual BLOOD, with Messiah as the HEAD, but even then I have seen power issues there as well... I don't know the answer to what is a PERFECT "group government," but I tend to believe that the example of Moses and the Israelites is a good basic "Constitution" to form upon... Although Moses was elected by YHWH himself, a strong leader would be needed with a wisely chosen group of Elders/Judges below him. of which the Judges could overule the Leader, or remove the Leader" if power corrupted or wisdom was found lacking. Then each TRIBE (family) would have their leader (Father ideally/ or Mother for divorced families) who would see to their own survival within the group...

But I have not seen such groups, so I take your examples and experience with "other groups" to heart, which is a story of saddness, for it makes the prospect of a workable GROUP seem very unlikely... I can only hope that EXCEPTIONS rise up and become MODELS for others to follow...

As for the New Testament example of "commune-type" community, many assume "if it is in the Bible, it must be right," but it could also just historically tell it like it went down, no doctrine implied... They tried this type of community and it eventually failed, but the example of Annanias and Sapphira was not about "communal living," it was about SWEARING to give a certain OFFERING to YHWH and then try to LIE about it before YHWH and the Congregation. They didn't have to give anything... It was not a TITHE... They could have kept it all... But they COMMITTED something and then took it back, which resulted in swift judgement upon them...

Rmpl

[Lowdown3]

I think we can see more examples than just Annanias and Sapphira. Their must have been a reason that Paul would state that men should work with their hands, quietly, eat their bread with gladness, etc. And in another verse, if any man should not work, the same should not eat. And let's not forget Paul brought money donated from other churches to the church in Jerusalem. Might have been because of a drought, etc. or it might have been cause they got too many slackbutts!!! LOL

Even in the examples I've seen of groups that were based solely or closely around a NT church type setup, it was clear that like in most organizations the saying about "20% of the people doing 80% of the work" was true there also.

"Human nature" has been kicking us all in the butt since Eve handed Adam the apple :) While it's sometimes easier when everyone is a Believer, sometimes it's not.