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Defensive Terminal Ballistics of the .22 LR for a Prepper

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Grand58742 View Post
    Actually, not true as indicated by Doctor Gary Roberts.



    Penetration, temporary and permanent crush cavities has everything to do with wounding rather than energy transfer.

    We can all agree the .22 LR isn't the best or first choice for a defensive caliber, but it certainly beats a sharp stick. And if I had a choice between screaming bad words at an enemy or having a .22 LR, it's a simple choice.
    The energy, in terms of foot pounds, that a caliber delivers will certainly play a role in the amount of penetration. Given the same type of bullet, the more energy the more penetration. The .22 LR does not have the penetration of more powerful defensive rounds.

    A .22LR is not very effective in creating temporary crush cavities or cavitation. In fact, most hand gun rounds that I know do not have the velocity and muzzle energy to where temporary cavitation is a factor. Rifle rounds, however, can cause considerable damage to surrounding organs without hitting them due to temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock.

    As far as permanent crush cavities the .22LR is not as effective as a larger round at creating a permanent would cavity. The .22LR is lethal and can cause damage that is not measured by some of the factors you mentioned. In the case of my cousin the .22 penetrated the lower abdomen and caused too much damage for the surgeons to repair. If the surgical team were more skilled perhaps they could have saved him. Keep in mind that although he died, it did not cause immediate incapacitation. He responded to the threat and was active until hospitalized. This activity could have contributed to the internal bleeding. I am not a doctor, and am only speculating on the extent of his injuries and repair. But he did die later.

    The transference of energy into the body is very important regarding stopping power, as it creates a shock to the system, as well as fragmentation. A bullet that penetrates may be more lethal causing two holes where blood escapes but at the same time not has as much shock to the nervous system. The .22LR although it can be lethal, it cannot be considered or classified as a defensive round.

    As far as everyone agreeing that the .22LR is not an ideal defensive round, you would be surprised. There are people who argue that it is. There is a person in this thread that claim if a round were used as a defensive round it is classified as a defensive round. A person could use a pencil or a sharp stick in a defensive situation and win a conflict - would anyone consider a pencil or a sharp stick a defensive weapon - look at my concealed weapon defensive stick. I am just highlighting that there are people out there that are not aware. There are people out there who constantly ask about the defensive nature of the .22LR.

    I owned several martial arts schools and taught bodyguards, LE, Military, etc. I am well versed in bladed weapons including knives. But if I planned in advance, I would not want to take a knife to a gun fight. Why are people planning to carry a .22LR in a bug out situation, where defense may be one of the most critical factors. Preppers are supposed to be prepared ahead of time. So why plan on bringing a .22LR to a gun fight? I am merely highlighting the limitations of the .22 RL in relation to stopping power for preppers in a self defense situation.

    Yes a .22LR is better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words at an enemy. But is that really a standard for measuring its defensive capability? In other words, any weapon better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words can be classified as an effective self defense weapon.
    EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

    KEEP ON PREPPING

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rockriver View Post
      patriot.
      thanks for the post..

      i've learned a lot.
      rr
      Hey rockriver, glad you enjoyed the thread. The Rock River is on of my favorite ARs.
      EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

      KEEP ON PREPPING

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
        Hey hot shot. Guess you were not able to place your shots accurately. Gee wiz, missed the head? Wonder how you good you would be placing shots if the rabbit were shooting back at you.
        This is a friendly discussion, no need for name calling or snippy comments...
        Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
          The energy, in terms of foot pounds, that a caliber delivers will certainly play a role in the amount of penetration. Given the same type of bullet, the more energy the more penetration. The .22 LR does not have the penetration of more powerful defensive rounds.

          A .22LR is not very effective in creating temporary crush cavities or cavitation. In fact, most hand gun rounds that I know do not have the velocity and muzzle energy to where temporary cavitation is a factor. Rifle rounds, however, can cause considerable damage to surrounding organs without hitting them due to temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock.

          As far as permanent crush cavities the .22LR is not as effective as a larger round at creating a permanent would cavity. The .22LR is lethal and can cause damage that is not measured by some of the factors you mentioned. In the case of my cousin the .22 penetrated the lower abdomen and caused too much damage for the surgeons to repair. If the surgical team were more skilled perhaps they could have saved him. Keep in mind that although he died, it did not cause immediate incapacitation. He responded to the threat and was active until hospitalized. This activity could have contributed to the internal bleeding. I am not a doctor, and am only speculating on the extent of his injuries and repair. But he did die later.

          The transference of energy into the body is very important regarding stopping power, as it creates a shock to the system, as well as fragmentation. A bullet that penetrates may be more lethal causing two holes where blood escapes but at the same time not has as much shock to the nervous system. The .22LR although it can be lethal, it cannot be considered or classified as a defensive round.

          As far as everyone agreeing that the .22LR is not an ideal defensive round, you would be surprised. There are people who argue that it is. There is a person in this thread that claim if a round were used as a defensive round it is classified as a defensive round. A person could use a pencil or a sharp stick in a defensive situation and win a conflict - would anyone consider a pencil or a sharp stick a defensive weapon - look at my concealed weapon defensive stick. I am just highlighting that there are people out there that are not aware. There are people out there who constantly ask about the defensive nature of the .22LR.

          I owned several martial arts schools and taught bodyguards, LE, Military, etc. I am well versed in bladed weapons including knives. But if I planned in advance, I would not want to take a knife to a gun fight. Why are people planning to carry a .22LR in a bug out situation, where defense may be one of the most critical factors. Preppers are supposed to be prepared ahead of time. So why plan on bringing a .22LR to a gun fight? I am merely highlighting the limitations of the .22 RL in relation to stopping power for preppers in a self defense situation.

          Yes a .22LR is better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words at an enemy. But is that really a standard for measuring its defensive capability? In other words, any weapon better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words can be classified as an effective self defense weapon.
          Nobody on here is arguing the .22 LR is a viable defensive round. Nor are they arguing a .22 should be a primary defensive round. However, when push comes to shove, I would not feel "under gunned" by having a .22 against an untrained opponent. I'd much rather have something else, an AR, AK or 7.62x51, but again, if it comes down to shooting what I happen to have in my hands or wishing for something else, I'm going to negate the threat to the best of my abilities. If I only have a bolt action .22 on hand at the time, I'm going to use that and make sure every shot counts.

          And funny you mention penetration as a factor. Very true and in calibrated ballistic gel, 12 inches is the FBI minimum for defensive rounds. And certain brands (the CCI Velocitor for example) generally penetrates 12+ inches from a rifle. Is it a viable defensive round? No, again, there are better. Does it meet the penetration minimums designated by the resident experts? It does. Does it offer reliable expansion (as velocity plays an important part in this) in tests? Studies show it does. And knowing such ballistics makes me aware the round can be used in a defensive situation. Is it the "best?" No it is not, but it is a round capable of negating a threat, hence why people say it can be used in a defensive situation. Is it a "defensive round?" Absolutely not. But frankly, there are plenty of rounds out there that are not "defensive" enough to meet the criteria of the FBI protocols for temporary or permanent crush and wounding channels, to include your 9mm and .45 ACP ammo. And many of the "Big Three" of rifle rounds, the 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 lack the sufficient penetration and or fragmentation to be reliable "man stoppers."

          But even as a .22 is not the best choice as a defensive round, it is capable of being used in that situation. Most people don't think it is as they know what it is (or rather isn't) capable of. But what most people don't know is the other "defensive" rounds aren't as capable either. As a matter of fact, many of the .223/5.56 rounds are not viable either due to the fact they offer little to no fragmentation and/or expansion. The Russian animal brands namely which people tend to stock up on. There are far better defensive rounds out there for use in an AR. Now having said that, I'd rather have a reliable AR with a mag of Tula than a Ruger 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor. And I'd rather have a 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor than a handgun. Range is important in a fight and the further out you keep a bad guy, the better off you are. And if shooting someone at 100 yards and keeping them pinned down while they bleed out is what happens, you've now accomplished your mission.
          Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
            Hey hot shot. Guess you were not able to place your shots accurately. Gee wiz, missed the head? Wonder how you good you would be placing shots if the rabbit were shooting back at you.
            I hit where I was aiming. The round struck the base of the skull where it joins the neck and destroyed/shreaded the front half of the rabbit and sent the contents of the rabbit's stomach, bladder and intestines over the remaining meat.

            Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
            The energy, in terms of foot pounds, that a caliber delivers will certainly play a role in the amount of penetration. Given the same type of bullet, the more energy the more penetration. The .22 LR does not have the penetration of more powerful defensive rounds.

            Do a search on youtube for .22lr ballistic gel tests. Some round nose .22lr will penetrate 17" which exceeds FBI testing standards.

            As far as everyone agreeing that the .22LR is not an ideal defensive round, you would be surprised. There are people who argue that it is. There is a person in this thread that claim if a round were used as a defensive round it is classified as a defensive round.

            I believe I said something to the effect of any round used in a defensive situation...... has by definition has become a defensive caliber.

            A person could use a pencil or a sharp stick in a defensive situation and win a conflict - would anyone consider a pencil or a sharp stick a defensive weapon - look at my concealed weapon defensive stick.

            Absolutely! You as a martial artist and instructor should know and understand full well and good..... it is not about the implement used, it is about the person using it. Like the old sayings, " its the Indian not the arrow", "the mechanic and not the tool", etc. YOU are the weapon!!!

            I owned several martial arts schools and taught bodyguards, LE, Military, etc. I am well versed in bladed weapons including knives. But if I planned in advance, I would not want to take a knife to a gun fight.

            Why not take a knife too? At close contact distances a knife may very will indeed be more effective especially in skilled hands.

            Why are people planning to carry a .22LR in a bug out situation, where defense may be one of the most critical factors. Preppers are supposed to be prepared ahead of time. So why plan on bringing a .22LR to a gun fight?

            Because it may be the only thing availible to them at the time. Maybe they ran out of ammo for their primary. Maybe their primary was rendered inoperable. Maybe they lost their weapon some how and this is what some one else gave them to use.

            Yes a .22LR is better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words at an enemy. But is that really a standard for measuring its defensive capability? In other words, any weapon better than a sharp stick or screaming bad words can be classified as an effective self defense weapon.
            Originally posted by Grand58742 View Post
            Nobody on here is arguing the .22 LR is a viable defensive round. Nor are they arguing a .22 should be a primary defensive round. However, when push comes to shove, I would not feel "under gunned" by having a .22 against an untrained opponent. I'd much rather have something else, an AR, AK or 7.62x51, but again, if it comes down to shooting what I happen to have in my hands or wishing for something else, I'm going to negate the threat to the best of my abilities. If I only have a bolt action .22 on hand at the time, I'm going to use that and make sure every shot counts.

            This is what I was getting at!

            But even as a .22 is not the best choice as a defensive round, it is capable of being used in that situation. Most people don't think it is as they know what it is (or rather isn't) capable of. But what most people don't know is the other "defensive" rounds aren't as capable either. As a matter of fact, many of the .223/5.56 rounds are not viable either due to the fact they offer little to no fragmentation and/or expansion.

            Paul Howe talked about his experience as a Delta Operator in Somalia using issued SS109 steel core ammo from a carbine length barrel not having reliable fragmentation and often taking five or more rounds to bring down Somalis.


            The Russian animal brands namely which people tend to stock up on. There are far better defensive rounds out there for use in an AR. Now having said that, I'd rather have a reliable AR with a mag of Tula than a Ruger 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor. And I'd rather have a 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor than a handgun. Range is important in a fight and the further out you keep a bad guy, the better off you are. And if shooting someone at 100 yards and keeping them pinned down while they bleed out is what happens, you've now accomplished your mission.
            +1
            Last edited by Mjollnir; 06-19-2012, 07:09 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Patriot Prepper, I wasn't out to bust your balls or give you a hard time. I meant no offense toward you and if you took any that was certainly not my intent. It can sometimes be hard to convey emotion through text alone. I was merely sharing my opinions based on my experiences and research on the subject. I respect your opinion and can agree to disagree about our conclusions.
              Take care,
              MJ

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks MJ, I appreciate your clarification. Have a great day!
                EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

                KEEP ON PREPPING

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Grand58742 View Post
                  Nobody on here is arguing the .22 LR is a viable defensive round. Nor are they arguing a .22 should be a primary defensive round. However, when push comes to shove, I would not feel "under gunned" by having a .22 against an untrained opponent. I'd much rather have something else, an AR, AK or 7.62x51, but again, if it comes down to shooting what I happen to have in my hands or wishing for something else, I'm going to negate the threat to the best of my abilities. If I only have a bolt action .22 on hand at the time, I'm going to use that and make sure every shot counts.

                  And funny you mention penetration as a factor. Very true and in calibrated ballistic gel, 12 inches is the FBI minimum for defensive rounds. And certain brands (the CCI Velocitor for example) generally penetrates 12+ inches from a rifle. Is it a viable defensive round? No, again, there are better. Does it meet the penetration minimums designated by the resident experts? It does. Does it offer reliable expansion (as velocity plays an important part in this) in tests? Studies show it does. And knowing such ballistics makes me aware the round can be used in a defensive situation. Is it the "best?" No it is not, but it is a round capable of negating a threat, hence why people say it can be used in a defensive situation. Is it a "defensive round?" Absolutely not. But frankly, there are plenty of rounds out there that are not "defensive" enough to meet the criteria of the FBI protocols for temporary or permanent crush and wounding channels, to include your 9mm and .45 ACP ammo. And many of the "Big Three" of rifle rounds, the 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 lack the sufficient penetration and or fragmentation to be reliable "man stoppers."

                  But even as a .22 is not the best choice as a defensive round, it is capable of being used in that situation. Most people don't think it is as they know what it is (or rather isn't) capable of. But what most people don't know is the other "defensive" rounds aren't as capable either. As a matter of fact, many of the .223/5.56 rounds are not viable either due to the fact they offer little to no fragmentation and/or expansion. The Russian animal brands namely which people tend to stock up on. There are far better defensive rounds out there for use in an AR. Now having said that, I'd rather have a reliable AR with a mag of Tula than a Ruger 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor. And I'd rather have a 10/22 with a mag of Velocitor than a handgun. Range is important in a fight and the further out you keep a bad guy, the better off you are. And if shooting someone at 100 yards and keeping them pinned down while they bleed out is what happens, you've now accomplished your mission.
                  I respect your opinion. But if you read all the posts, there were some statements arguing that it is a defensive round. I did not start a thread to argue. My point was in highlighting the fact that the .22LR is not a practical defense round in reference to one shot stopping power as it is weak in the area of terminal ballistics when compared to viable defensive rounds.

                  Also if you are armed with a .22LR against an opponent with an AR or Ak, you truly are outgunned. Not to say you have no chance of prevailing. You are simply outgunned as far as the power of the cartridge as well as the accuracy and distance. As far as using what you have at hand, obviously the .22 is better than nothing. But the thread was aimed at preppers - preppers need to be prepared. That means making all efforts to use the right tool for the job that will give you the best chance of prevailing. The .22 LR is not the right tool or the best.

                  Actually I brought up penetration in response to a post. I do not choose my defensive weapons by referring to FBI stats or standards. I know the lethality of the .22LR - as stated my cousin died of a .22LR. I am trying to emphasize stopping power in a gun fight. As a bodyguard, I would not consider the .22LR as a feasible defensive round and I know of no one in LE or Military (or the FBI) that would prefer to use it, or recommend it, regardless of penetration tests. So I am not sure why there are responses to a post that is discussing stopping power.

                  "Keeping someone pinned down at 100 yards until they bleed out," as you stated, is fine and dandy, assuming you shot them before they shot you. And there is only one of them, and they are not firing back at you with a more potent round. I am trying to stop the speculation regarding the .22LR and the if type scenarios.

                  Your statement, "And many of the "Big Three" of rifle rounds, the 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 lack the sufficient penetration and or fragmentation to be reliable "man stoppers." " If we use that as a logical statement - then what exactly is a man stopper? A 7.62 round lacks penetration power? Against humans or rhinos?

                  If you look at my original post, I am keenly aware of the limitations of handgun rounds, even the .45 - that is why I teach and practice using triple taps. But is there are real comparison of the .22LR versus the .45 in pure stopping power?

                  This thread was never intended to be argumentative. I made statements that placed the .22LR in relation to one shot stopping power versus other rounds. But somehow that seems to cause people to defend the .22LR round in reference to that statement.
                  Last edited by Patriot Prepper; 06-20-2012, 05:08 PM.
                  EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

                  KEEP ON PREPPING

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    I respect your opinion. But if you read all the posts, there were some statements arguing that it is a defensive round. I did not start a thread to argue. My point was in highlighting the fact that the .22LR is not a practical defense round in reference to one shot stopping power as it is weak in the area of terminal ballistics when compared to viable defensive rounds.
                    You are correct, it is not a practical defensive round and there are far better. But again, when push comes to shove and used in that capacity, it can be effective given the proper round choices. And that goes for just about any firearm. I don't believe you'd protect your mother with one given the choice of another caliber, but again, proper round choice can make it more effective. Still not practical, but more effective than a knife or hands on.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    Also if you are armed with a .22LR against an opponent with an AR or Ak, you truly are outgunned. Not to say you have no chance of prevailing. You are simply outgunned as far as the power of the cartridge as well as the accuracy and distance.
                    You may be out gunned in caliber and range sure, but the key factor here that is overlooked is proficiency. Lot's of gang bangers and "disenfranchised urban youth" own and/or use AK rifles, Mac-10 (or whatever they are called these days) Go-lock pistols etc. Does this mean they are proficient in their use given range and the ability to put steel on target? How many of those types do you see at the range doing point shooting, triple taps, rapid reloads, correcting malfunctions, etc? Point is, you typically don't. So while the caliber choice might be on the other side of the equation, proficiency rides with the one that knows their firearm, the ballistics and the aforementioned ability to put steel on target. So one wouldn't necessarily be "out gunned" in that situation. Situation dictates as always.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    As far as using what you have at hand, obviously the .22 is better than nothing. But the thread was aimed at preppers - preppers need to be prepared. That means making all efforts to use the right tool for the job that will give you the best chance of prevailing. The .22 LR is not the right tool or the best.
                    Of which we all would agree it is not the best or maybe even the right tool for the job. But it is not without its merits in the self defense arena.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    Actually I brought up penetration in response to a post. I do not choose my defensive weapons by referring to FBI stats or standards.
                    On this, I would disagree since they are the resident experts that keep stats on such things. If the FBI protocols show round X is better and/or more efficient than round Y, it's better to go with round X in my opinion. My defensive load of 5.56 is what the FBI uses. I feel that is it's good enough for them after they spent countless hours and money testing it, I probably can't go wrong choosing it for my own use and to protect those I care about.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    I know the lethality of the .22LR - as stated my cousin died of a .22LR. I am trying to emphasize stopping power in a gun fight. As a bodyguard, I would not consider the .22LR as a feasible defensive round and I know of no one in LE or Military (or the FBI) that would prefer to use it, or recommend it, regardless of penetration tests. So I am not sure why there are responses to a post that is discussing stopping power.
                    I don't believe anyone in their right mind would recommend going into a gun fight with a .22 LR (except Gunkid lol) nor did anyone on here suggest using it as a primary arm that I saw.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    "Keeping someone pinned down at 100 yards until they bleed out," as you stated, is fine and dandy, assuming you shot them before they shot you. And there is only one of them, and they are not firing back at you with a more potent round. I am trying to stop the speculation regarding the .22LR and the if type scenarios.
                    And again, situation dictates as the ability to shoot straight and the psychology of being shot comes into play. Without speculation and "what if" scenarios, in a WROL situation that a untrained opponent that just so happens to have picked up an M1A starts shooting away at me, who has the advantage? Him because his weapon and caliber can reach out a lot more than mine? Do I have the advantage because I know my rifle inside and out, the limitations and advantages and can hit what I'm aiming at? Situation dictates all that.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    Your statement, "And many of the "Big Three" of rifle rounds, the 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 lack the sufficient penetration and or fragmentation to be reliable "man stoppers." " If we use that as a logical statement - then what exactly is a man stopper? A 7.62 round lacks penetration power? Against humans or rhinos?
                    Yes, and we go back to wounding ballistics and round types. Take the Hornady TAP-FPD 110 grain 7.62x51 for example. Hornady touts that as "For Personal Defense" although penetration tests show it comes nowhere near the penetration depth to be an effective self defense round. It expends all it's energy and fragments before even coming close to the FBI protocols (which I understand you might not agree with). So with your snippy comment of "rhinos or men," I give you a round that's not the best choice for self defense, even though it's packaged that way. And here we have our baseline problem. You state the .22 LR is not an effective defensive round. Okay, neither are certain loads in the 5.56, 7.62x39 and x51. Varmint bullets (typically the V-Max and some A-Max Hornady and pretty much any rounds under 55 grain with a few exceptions) are not good self defense rounds. They simply lack the penetration to hit vital organs or good CNS shots. Russian animal brands (Wolf, Bear, Tula, etc) have a thicker steel jacket that does not promote fragmentation, yawing or expansion in the hollow point design and are more of a straight through and through bullet. They work great for range time and proficiency, but for self defense? I'd much rather go with something else that's been proven to be more reliable.

                    So yes Virginia, there are some rounds out there that do NOT live up to the self defense loads or those I would trust my life to without hesitation. Would I use them if it's all I had? Sure would...just like a .22 LR is that's all I had.

                    Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                    If you look at my original post, I am keenly aware of the limitations of handgun rounds, even the .45 - that is why I teach and practice using triple taps. But is there are real comparison of the .22LR versus the .45 in pure stopping power?

                    This thread was never intended to be argumentative. I made statements that placed the .22LR in relation to one shot stopping power versus other rounds. But somehow that seems to cause people to defend the .22LR round in reference to that statement.
                    Yes, the .22 LR has limited stopping power in relation to other calibers. However, personally, I'd prefer a .22 LR in a pistol over say a .25 ACP. I know what the .22 LR is capable of and what the .25 ACP isn't capable of. Would I prefer to have a .45 ACP or 9mm? You betcha. Will I use what's on hand? You betcha. Will I ever recommend a .22 LR as a viable self defense caliber? Nope. Will I inform those I meet it can be a useful defensive tool and relatively potent given the right round types as well as shot placement? Better than nothing an if you're out squirrel hunting an end up getting attacked, I for one won't be tossing down my rifle since it's "not effective" and wishing I had my trusty AR. I'm going to use the tools at hand and defend myself.

                    Your original post about it not being a good defensive round was correct. You are correct in saying there are far better rounds out there for defensive purposes. But generally speaking, the .22 LR has been an probably will continue to be used in the defensive role. Is it the best choice? Not at all, but again, sometimes you have to use the tools on hand you have or are highly proficient with instead of wishing for something better. I'd much rather have one good aimed shot that hits the target with a .22 than seventeen 9mm shots out of a Glock that miss each time. So to ex-nay the .22 LR completely as a defensive cartridge is not correct.

                    As you say, it isn't the best choice as there are far better, but it's not a round that can't be effective.
                    Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post

                      This thread was never intended to be argumentative. I made statements that placed the .22LR in relation to one shot stopping power versus other rounds. But somehow that seems to cause people to defend the .22LR round in reference to that statement.
                      I think the main issue people were having, or at least I was having, is the whole idea/myth of one shot stops in general. There are no guarantees with any round being capable of one shot stops based on caliber.
                      example #1 -
                      (mods delete link if you see fit) Proarms podcast #52 was an interview with Chicago PD Lt. Bob Stasch. He tells the story of his first of four-teen shootings where he and his partner had to shoot a 5'7" 143lb man armed with a knife. Partner shot perp CoM with six rounds of 45LC, they began wrestling and the partner pumped five rounds of 38spl in the perps back with muzzle contact. Stasch arrived on scene and fired two rounds of 44mag in the upper torso from 15' with no effect and fired two more rounds in his leg which is what brought him down. Tests showed the perp had no drugs in his system and had a blood alcohol level of 0.05. http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/05/23...ce-department/

                      example #2 -
                      http://www.lawofficer.com/article/tr...er-soulis-inci (article of encounter)
                      http://www.lawofficer.com/video/trai...er-soulis-inci (video recreation of encounter)
                      Officer Soulis shot the suspect 22 times with his issued Glock22 loaded with Ranger SXTs. 17 of those hits were said to be CoM hits.

                      Example #3 -

                      Jacksonville officer Jared Reston was shot point blank multiple times by a suspect armed with a Glock 21 loaded with 230gr FMJ. The first shot was to the face breack his jaw and exited his neck. He managed to draw his weapon and return hitting the suspect multiple times with his Glock 22 before finishing the fight with three contact shots to the BG head. This is a must watch interview if for nothing else than what he says about the will to stay in fight.




                      There are no guarantees that any shot regardless of caliber will be a one shot stop unless you significantly damage the CNS. Gunfights are very dynamic in nature with all parties involved moving, shooting from odd positions, in and around cover, etc, etc........ But it doesn't have to be a one round gunfight either. Take what shots you can get as quickly as you can with the goal of working towards/opening up a CNS shot. If you stop the threat before you get there then great but don't hold out for the perfect shot.
                      Last edited by Mjollnir; 06-20-2012, 07:15 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        To be clear, I never said that a .22LR could never be used in a defensive situation - especially if that is the only weapon you have. I am addressing those individuals who place too much trust in the round and are premeditatively PLANNING on using it as a self defense round. That is a major and distinctive difference.

                        I also noted in the OP that there is no perfect man stopper, that is why I referenced CNS shots and also wrote this: "When training someone in combat shooting, I teach the triple tap. The triple tap is two quick shots to center mass then one shot to the head. That is a good man stopper technique." You react how you train. Now if I fired two center mass shots and the person did not respond, instead of attempting a head shot, I might fire another round or two followed by a head shot. The odds of that happening are unlikely.

                        Understand in any gun fight, there are exception to most rules and strange things happen. Even highly trained individuals often choke and miss - multiple times. Also there are individual who get shot a dozen time and won't go down. There are incidents where people get shot with a .357 mag and keep shooting. And there are times when someone gets shot with a .22LR and drops dead on the spot. BUT and the big but is, the odds of winning a gun fight are in favor of a person using a more powerful defensive round versus the person using a .22LR -- all other factor being equal. That ultimately means that the .22LR is statistically inferior as a defensive round compared to other rounds that are defensive by design. So my advice is not to use the .22LR as a defensive round or rely on it. Do all in your power to armed with something more substantial.
                        EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

                        KEEP ON PREPPING

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                        • #27
                          Good points guys. I see all side of your debate.

                          But I do know that with my .22 with lets say Stingers, if I head shot someone at 100 yards, it could kill them.
                          If I gut shot someone at 100 yards it could do the same.
                          It could also just put a ding on em and they could shake it off.

                          My .22 is the only rifle I have that can put multiple rounds down range in a quick time frame.

                          I do have a .308 which would be my defensive rifle for any distance. My 12 gauge, is my true defense.

                          The .22 is more of my offense. Kind of like a short quick wide receiver with good hands that doesnt mind going across the middle, but always scores in the red zone.
                          You know what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like this?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                            To be clear, I never said that a .22LR could never be used in a defensive situation - especially if that is the only weapon you have. I am addressing those individuals who place too much trust in the round and are premeditatively PLANNING on using it as a self defense round. That is a major and distinctive difference.

                            Agree 100%

                            I also noted in the OP that there is no perfect man stopper, that is why I referenced CNS shots and also wrote this: "When training someone in combat shooting, I teach the triple tap. The triple tap is two quick shots to center mass then one shot to the head. That is a good man stopper technique." You react how you train. Now if I fired two center mass shots and the person did not respond, instead of attempting a head shot, I might fire another round or two followed by a head shot. The odds of that happening are unlikely.

                            Understand in any gun fight, there are exception to most rules and strange things happen. Even highly trained individuals often choke and miss - multiple times. Also there are individual who get shot a dozen time and won't go down. There are incidents where people get shot with a .357 mag and keep shooting. And there are times when someone gets shot with a .22LR and drops dead on the spot. BUT and the big but is, the odds of winning a gun fight are in favor of a person using a more powerful defensive round versus the person using a .22LR -- all other factor being equal. That ultimately means that the .22LR is statistically inferior as a defensive round compared to other rounds that are defensive by design. So my advice is not to use the .22LR as a defensive round or rely on it. Do all in your power to armed with something more substantial.
                            I understand what your saying man and for the most part agree with you. Given the choice between other caliber options I would not opt for a .22lr 99.99999999% of the time and in that the very limited scenario I would choose it, it would only be as an addition and not a primary system.

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                            • #29
                              Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon and it takes considerable effort to shoot sub-minute at even short ranges of 100 yards.

                              I love shooting the .22 and shoot my Ruger 10/22 between 25 and 100 yards for speed. At 100 to 200 I use a bolt action Savage. With the Savage I can get sub-minute depending on many factors. At two hundred yards it is difficult for me to even get 2" groups.

                              Regarding precision shooting. One rule of thumb that I use, and it is only an approximation, is that shooting a .22 LR at 100 yards is like shooting a .308 at 300 yards. Shooting the .22 LR at 200 yards is like shooting a .308 at 600 yards. In fact, I am more comfortable and more accurate shooting my .308 at 600 yards than I am shooting my .22LR at 200 yards. That is my experience. Your milage may vary.

                              LE snipers generally do not take head shots past the 100 yard mark. the head is the most mobile part of the body and moves more than center mass. Taking a head shot with a .22LR at 100 yards is a difficult proposition. You need to hit in a approximately 3 x 5" area. A real life head shot, not a target shot, at 100 yards is challenging, even for a trained sniper using a precision highly accurate weapon. Using a .22LR for the same head shot would be beyond the ability of most shooters. It is also questionable whether the .22LR would have enough penetrating power and energy to deliver an incapacitating head shot, unless perfectly placed.

                              Another factor in using the .22LR for distances of 100 yards or greater is the amount of energy remaining in the round. At one hundred yards the .22LR has about half the energy of a 9mm pistol round at close range. As most know, when using a handgun round, it is recommended not to rely on one shot to do the job. That means at 100 yards, the .22LR with half the energy of a 9mm will most likely take multiple shots to put down an assailant.

                              Also keep in mind, just because you hit the assailant at 100 yards, because of the weak terminal ballistic characteristics of the .22 LR, they may still have the ability to shoot back. It is unlikely that they will just stand there and let you get multiple rounds in their head or belly. They may take cover and return fire. With a high power rifle cartridge one shot will most likely do tremendous damage versus a .22LR - all factors being the same.

                              Doing as much damage as possible to the assailant is what will help you survive. Using the right tool that is designed for defense, along with training, is the best was to help assure you can inflict as much damage to the assailant's body as possible. The .22LR is one of may favorite rounds. Unfortunately it is not the right tool to do the job. When possible be prepared and use the right tool.
                              Last edited by Patriot Prepper; 06-21-2012, 10:03 AM.
                              EXPECT THE BEST - PREPARE FOR THE WORSE

                              KEEP ON PREPPING

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Patriot Prepper View Post
                                Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon
                                oooops, someone forgot to tell me that :)
                                Knowledge is Power, Practiced Knowledge is Strength, Tested Knowledge is Confidence

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