Defensive Terminal Ballistics of the .22 LR for a Prepper

[Matt In Oklahoma]

This thread has given a lot to think about. Having a scientific type mind I think about the "knock down" power of a round. This is basically the Kinetic energy (1/2 mass X velocity squared) that is transferred to the body part hit. This shows that the velocity has a huge part in the amount of energy(knock down power). But if the round goes completely thru the part then there will be energy lost.

Knockdown power is a farce and a hugely over stated and over rated piece of the equation. I've seen bowing pins stand there after a solid hit from a 45 (ya know the one everyone uses to knockdown Chuck Norris) and yet watched the same pin hit with a 22 fall. Last year we had a match and at 30yds a guy using ball 308 wasted 2-3 hits a pin because it was sailing right thru the center of them but supposedly this is his SHTF ammo that will knockdown zombies at 1000yds. We used, so called pipsqueak, 223 SP and knocked down the pins even with marginal hits because the soft bullet was able to grab the material. So which is better? Neither
I have never ever knocked down a deer with my 30-06. I might have dropped him from severing the the spinal cord or shattering the shoulders or causing enough nerve and organ failure with the energy dump but if I get only a fatal heart or lung hit that deer may run 100yds before running out of gas. As a Doc you should know this on vitals
Watch any video, for those who havent been there, of war or shootouts and see suckers absorbing hit after hit and no knockdown. Watch the LA bank shootout where the had body armor on and took multiple hits from everything they could throw at them and their bodies twitched or jerked but no one got knocked down.
Having enough energy for the task is needed but bullet placement is everything

[Doc]

This thread has given a lot to think about. Having a scientific type mind I think about the "knock down" power of a round. This is basically the Kinetic energy (1/2 mass X velocity squared) that is transferred to the body part hit. This shows that the velocity has a huge part in the amount of energy(knock down power). But if the round goes completely thru the part then there will be energy lost.
But as was said, if the round transfers all of its energy in the first couple of inches you will not be hitting critical organs. This could cause the fight to be prolonged increasing your risk of return fire.
Most of the people here know a heck of a lot more then I do about all of this. I do appreciate all of the comments. They do get me thinking about all of the factors involved, which are many.

[blankstare]

22 will work in a lot of cases....most people don't see a 22....they see a gun...they run
they hear a gunshot....they run
they see blood .....they freak out

you work with what you got

i've put down a lot of game with a 22....big and little....it will get the job done....but don't forget it's limitations....and don't expect miracles

[Grand58742]

I tend to follow Doc Roberts ammo choices and selections for the most part. There are a few round types I use that aren't on his "list" but they have proven themselves in my weapons as reliable. For me in .223/5.56, I'd rather have deeper penetration and the chance of hitting a CNS shot or vital organ than a fast acting lighter bullet that expends all its energy in the first six to eight inches of penetration in ballistic gel like most 45-52 grain bullets (the Barnes TSX 50 grain being the notable exception to the rule). Lower grain shells are dependent on dropping their energy fast in a target (generally small game) and relying on quick fragmentation and energy dump rather than deeper penetration and controlled expansion. A bullet won't do me any good if over a certain range it does little more than create a superficial wound and doesn't penetrate to a depth to create wounds in critical organs and/or a longer/larger permanent crush cavity.

I don't have the money, facilities or technical know how to do my own ballistic tests, so I rely on others to provide the data. As for OIS incidents, I believe he (Doc Roberts) keeps up with them these days and he's been pretty good about giving data out as needed. Again, I use him as a starting point and make my own determination as to what I will have in my stash. I have the Winchester 64 grain bonded soft points as my HD load and backed up by Mk 318 I bought before I started studying heavily into the subject. I have good plans to slowly pick up more Winny as time goes on, but it's expensive and hard to buy in bulk. But I do have ammo ranging from 55 grain FMJ up to 68 grain match and with the addition of my 1/7 twist barrels as of late, will be adding in some 75-77 grain stuff since I have a reliable platform to use them. I'm relatively covered in most arenas I would encounter.

But on the original post, I don't think anyone has done sufficient testing on any .22 LR to offer good data on the viability as a SD round. I've seen some gel tests on Brassfetcher, but never any serious work done to say "this round is recommended" over any others.

I think we can agree to disagree on round selections and I'm not doubting your expertise in the area. Different schools of thought and teachers so to speak.

In the last few years, bullets have been created that change the way we think about killing power. Normal cup/core bullets have a threshold of velocity verse bullet weight retention. We can increase the jacket thickness, add crimps, change core design or construction (steel verse lead) to try and improve a normal cup/core bullets performance at higher velocities or upon meeting some type of barrier or bones. The old rule was use a heavy bullet if you wanted penetration, which also slowed the bullet down. It wasn't that the bullet was necessarily "tougher", just that the velocity was slower and the bullet was not as prone to coming apart. In the last few years, bonding the lead core to the cup has become popular, which also leads to being able to drive the bullet faster. The best bullet construction by far to date is the solid copper or bronze bullets (Barness TSX, TTSX, and Hornady has some as well). These bullets stay together at much higher velocities and have somewhat re-written the rules on bullet choice.

The FBI, IMO, puts too much emphasis on penetration. Let's compare some of their findings using your previous post. The 147 gr 9mm penetrates gelatin further than a 125 gr out of a 308 rifle in their testing. In my testing, a standard, non-bonded ballistic tip will shoot through a 1/2" thick piece of mild steel at 100 yards. The same 147 gr 9mm will barely mark the steel at 25 yards. A 40 and 45 will not do much better. Why? Velocity. The 125 grain in a 308 is moving out at 3000 fps in a short barrel gun.

Another example: 223 green tip (62 gr) will not penetrate AR500 plate at 100 yards but the M193 (I can't remeber if that is the correct # or not, but the 55 gr military load) with a 55 grain standard cup/core FMJ will drill holes through it. Again, velocity is the reason. Move the velocity of the green tip up and it will out-perform the 55 gr. on steel.

But to answer your question as to what is a good rule of thumb on picking good, reliable defensive ammo. Go with a proven premium bullet in handguns with a good +P velocity. The 9mm 115 +P+ with a bonded core bullet would be lights out. I have also heard good things from the 124, 127 gr class of bullets in the 9mm. I would not shoot the 147 in the 9mm. The bullet is simply too big and takes up too much powder capacity (slow FPS). I have used it on animals out of handguns and subguns and it is junk. If you shoot suppressed then yes, the 147 is the way to go.

Rifles are a little different. Short range, I would love a 45-50 gr in the 223 or a 120-135 gr in 308 with a bonded core bullet or TTSX, but it would be pricey as hell. A bullet that light , though, would get pushed around a lot by the wind past 300-400 yards. I believe that to get the maximum use out of toting a rifle, you should be able to engage at least out to 600-700 yards if needed. We are talking defensive here so 300-400 yards would be plenty and a 10.5"-12" barrel on an AR would be very nice and light for everyday carry. Some guys are carrying a spare upper which is pretty light and gives you essentially a second rifle firing the same ammo.

You have a lot more choices in your ammo selection. The military is tied up by the Geneva Convention, and the FBI has to look at one bullet that will work for all scenarios and that all agents whether large or small can handle. Google ED Sanow, he used to keep data for actual police shootings and there may be some information there, but it might be dated unless someone else has taken up the torch.

[Grand58742]

Grand, you put too much faith in the FBI and their ballistic testing.

So what should we be using as a guide when it comes to round selection?

I've just gotten around to reading the 4 pages in this thread. Some thoughts:
I agree that a 22 would be my last choice as a defensive weapon as far as firearms go, but I would choose a 22 semi-auto rifle over a 9mm pistol in some situations. I would have to look at terrain if the choice was a 45 pistol verse a 22 rifle. If I had an AR, I would not care much for a handgun or shotgun in any situation.
I read of taking defensive shots at 600 yards with open sights. Unless you are in the dessert, don't shoot at all. You are over a 1/4 mile away. Get away and ambush or leave the scene entirely. Even with a scoped AR, I would not shoot at 600 yards unless I could not get any closer. Conserve your ammo.

Grand, you put too much faith in the FBI and their ballistic testing.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Your statement reminds me of CNC - the quote was taken out of context without posting it in its completeness. This is the complete sentence: "Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon and it takes considerable effort to shoot sub-minute at even short ranges of 100 yards."
I posted this in response to someone making reference to shooting someone at 100 yards with the .22LR - in a defense situation not such an easy task.
Looks like I must have rubbed a few of the regulars wrong with the OP - the statements made there were perfectly clear and really should not have required an defense on my part. So what shakes?

errr a joke, thus the smiley face, didnt downplay any statements, didnt comment in anyway shape or form to cause you to be in defense mode, maybe to lighten the expert contest this turned into, maybe cause several folks from this forum was teasin me bout taking some long shot recently in high winds and your right it shouldn't require any defense on your part

[Patriot Prepper]

oooops, someone forgot to tell me that :)

Your statement reminds me of CNC - the quote was taken out of context without posting it in its completeness. This is the complete sentence: "Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon and it takes considerable effort to shoot sub-minute at even short ranges of 100 yards."

I posted this in response to someone making reference to shooting someone at 100 yards with the .22LR - in a defense situation not such an easy task.

Looks like I must have rubbed a few of the regulars wrong with the OP - the statements made there were perfectly clear and really should not have required an defense on my part. So what shakes?

[tech]

Yup...three wasted pages of electrons ;)

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon

oooops, someone forgot to tell me that :)

[Patriot Prepper]

Another aspect that is often not taken into account is that the .22LR is not a long range weapon and it takes considerable effort to shoot sub-minute at even short ranges of 100 yards.

I love shooting the .22 and shoot my Ruger 10/22 between 25 and 100 yards for speed. At 100 to 200 I use a bolt action Savage. With the Savage I can get sub-minute depending on many factors. At two hundred yards it is difficult for me to even get 2" groups.

Regarding precision shooting. One rule of thumb that I use, and it is only an approximation, is that shooting a .22 LR at 100 yards is like shooting a .308 at 300 yards. Shooting the .22 LR at 200 yards is like shooting a .308 at 600 yards. In fact, I am more comfortable and more accurate shooting my .308 at 600 yards than I am shooting my .22LR at 200 yards. That is my experience. Your milage may vary.

LE snipers generally do not take head shots past the 100 yard mark. the head is the most mobile part of the body and moves more than center mass. Taking a head shot with a .22LR at 100 yards is a difficult proposition. You need to hit in a approximately 3 x 5" area. A real life head shot, not a target shot, at 100 yards is challenging, even for a trained sniper using a precision highly accurate weapon. Using a .22LR for the same head shot would be beyond the ability of most shooters. It is also questionable whether the .22LR would have enough penetrating power and energy to deliver an incapacitating head shot, unless perfectly placed.

Another factor in using the .22LR for distances of 100 yards or greater is the amount of energy remaining in the round. At one hundred yards the .22LR has about half the energy of a 9mm pistol round at close range. As most know, when using a handgun round, it is recommended not to rely on one shot to do the job. That means at 100 yards, the .22LR with half the energy of a 9mm will most likely take multiple shots to put down an assailant.

Also keep in mind, just because you hit the assailant at 100 yards, because of the weak terminal ballistic characteristics of the .22 LR, they may still have the ability to shoot back. It is unlikely that they will just stand there and let you get multiple rounds in their head or belly. They may take cover and return fire. With a high power rifle cartridge one shot will most likely do tremendous damage versus a .22LR - all factors being the same.

Doing as much damage as possible to the assailant is what will help you survive. Using the right tool that is designed for defense, along with training, is the best was to help assure you can inflict as much damage to the assailant's body as possible. The .22LR is one of may favorite rounds. Unfortunately it is not the right tool to do the job. When possible be prepared and use the right tool.

[Mjollnir]

To be clear, I never said that a .22LR could never be used in a defensive situation - especially if that is the only weapon you have. I am addressing those individuals who place too much trust in the round and are premeditatively PLANNING on using it as a self defense round. That is a major and distinctive difference.

Agree 100%

I also noted in the OP that there is no perfect man stopper, that is why I referenced CNS shots and also wrote this: "When training someone in combat shooting, I teach the triple tap. The triple tap is two quick shots to center mass then one shot to the head. That is a good man stopper technique." You react how you train. Now if I fired two center mass shots and the person did not respond, instead of attempting a head shot, I might fire another round or two followed by a head shot. The odds of that happening are unlikely.

Understand in any gun fight, there are exception to most rules and strange things happen. Even highly trained individuals often choke and miss - multiple times. Also there are individual who get shot a dozen time and won't go down. There are incidents where people get shot with a .357 mag and keep shooting. And there are times when someone gets shot with a .22LR and drops dead on the spot. BUT and the big but is, the odds of winning a gun fight are in favor of a person using a more powerful defensive round versus the person using a .22LR -- all other factor being equal. That ultimately means that the .22LR is statistically inferior as a defensive round compared to other rounds that are defensive by design. So my advice is not to use the .22LR as a defensive round or rely on it. Do all in your power to armed with something more substantial.

I understand what your saying man and for the most part agree with you. Given the choice between other caliber options I would not opt for a .22lr 99.99999999% of the time and in that the very limited scenario I would choose it, it would only be as an addition and not a primary system.

[WiseOwl]

Good points guys. I see all side of your debate.

But I do know that with my .22 with lets say Stingers, if I head shot someone at 100 yards, it could kill them.
If I gut shot someone at 100 yards it could do the same.
It could also just put a ding on em and they could shake it off.

My .22 is the only rifle I have that can put multiple rounds down range in a quick time frame.

I do have a .308 which would be my defensive rifle for any distance. My 12 gauge, is my true defense.

The .22 is more of my offense. Kind of like a short quick wide receiver with good hands that doesnt mind going across the middle, but always scores in the red zone.

[Patriot Prepper]

To be clear, I never said that a .22LR could never be used in a defensive situation - especially if that is the only weapon you have. I am addressing those individuals who place too much trust in the round and are premeditatively PLANNING on using it as a self defense round. That is a major and distinctive difference.

I also noted in the OP that there is no perfect man stopper, that is why I referenced CNS shots and also wrote this: "When training someone in combat shooting, I teach the triple tap. The triple tap is two quick shots to center mass then one shot to the head. That is a good man stopper technique." You react how you train. Now if I fired two center mass shots and the person did not respond, instead of attempting a head shot, I might fire another round or two followed by a head shot. The odds of that happening are unlikely.

Understand in any gun fight, there are exception to most rules and strange things happen. Even highly trained individuals often choke and miss - multiple times. Also there are individual who get shot a dozen time and won't go down. There are incidents where people get shot with a .357 mag and keep shooting. And there are times when someone gets shot with a .22LR and drops dead on the spot. BUT and the big but is, the odds of winning a gun fight are in favor of a person using a more powerful defensive round versus the person using a .22LR -- all other factor being equal. That ultimately means that the .22LR is statistically inferior as a defensive round compared to other rounds that are defensive by design. So my advice is not to use the .22LR as a defensive round or rely on it. Do all in your power to armed with something more substantial.