Defensive Terminal Ballistics of the .22 LR for a Prepper

[Patriot Prepper]

Almost every forum I read has a thread questioning the "killing Power" of the .22LR in regards to human targets.

I love the .22 LR and own many. It was my first rifle and handgun given to me at age 7. Still use them and practice with them at close range as well as up to 300 yards.

The ability of the .22 LR to kill someone is seldom doubted. But is that the real question? The question should be how effective is it as a terminal round. Should a prepper use it for defense?

I have a cousin who was shot and killed by a .22LR - a gang banger gangsta scum shot him in the stomach. My cousin died of internal bleeding. A good team of surgeons could have probably saved him. I also have a friend who was shot in the belly with a .22LR and it barley phased him. He did require emergency hospital treatment. But recovered quickly. There are many factors in a gun shot wound.

Yes a .22 LR can be lethal. But is it a good defensive round? No.

The .22 LR lacks the terminal ballistics to effectively stop a person unless extremely close up, and perfect shot placement. To think otherwise goes against the grain of statistics and logic. Thinking that you have perfect shot placement when engaging an armed bad guy who may be shooting at you and moving is also a bit unrealistic.

There are numerous studies that show the single shot stopping power of various rounds. The .22LR does not fair very well, especially compared to real defensive rounds. For that reason, experts pretty much universally agree that the minimum defensive round should be a 9mm - and a few will accept the .380 as a defensive round.

It is difficult to believe that anyone would consider the .22 LR as a defensive round especially in a gun fight.

In a gun fight the other guy shoots back. Would you really want to face someone holding a .45 if you had a .22 LR? Granted you might shoot them and they may die a hour or a day later, but the chances are, even if you shoot them first they will return fire.

As a body guard, and a combat pistol instructor, I do not even count on the .45 to be a one shot man stopper. Although there are stats that show that over 90% of the time it has one shot stopping power (compared to about 10-20% for a .22LR). When training someone in combat shooting, I teach the triple tap. The triple tap is two quick shots to center mass then one shot to the head. That is a good man stopper technique.

Keep in mind, that unless you hit the Central Nervous System, the person will not always go down immediately. Even a shot in the heart will give some individuals up to 10 or 15 seconds before they go into unconsciousness and die. In that time they could do a lot of damage to you.

Large caliber rifle rounds are another matter. There are other factors involved like hydrostatic shock and cavitation. In many instances a center mass shot can often be effective stopper. Game over.

As a prepper bugging out or defending a retreat, versus a survivalist lost in the woods waiting for rescue, I need a defensive weapon that will effectively do the job. The .22 LR is not it.

If you are a prepper, please get a round that is considered an effective defensive round with the absolute minimum being a 9mm (maybe a .380).

I see the lethality of the .22LR issue pop up all the time on various forums. Hopefully this will lay it to rest. If you want to survive an encounter with an armed assailant give yourself a fighting chance and use an effective round.

God bless you,
Keep on Prepping

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Shoot the largest caliber you can comfortably and accuratley, if it's a 22 then so be it.
Practice often

[WILL]

I'd say that the .22 is an important option. I believe it's the most important food producing weapon in my gun case. Small game is a much more prevelant, reliable source of food than larger animals where I am. It's also very light weight and shoots very light rounds. Last week I drove over 700 miles from home in order to back-pack in the mountains. I packed some items in my trunk to get me home just in case the lights went out while I was up there. The long gun I brought...my stainless steel, scoped Marlin model 60 .22 with a brick of ammo. I carried a .380 pocket pistol for the hike. Not exactly the most combat effective guns, but they were the lightest weapons I would be able to hump under those circumstances. I could have brought the AR-15, a shotgun or an AK, but I didn't want to pack an expensive armory in my trunk and the amount of ammo I would be able to carry for those weapons types wouldn't be enough to feed me for the walk home. So I hate to admit it, but a .22 rifle is my choice for a long distance bug-out. You simply can not carry enough ammo to feed a larger rifle. I definately agree the .22 isn't my go to defensive arm, but there are times I could see it filling that role.

[WiseOwl]

At this time my ruger 10/22 is my MBR. I got 25 round mags and it can deal just as quick as my brothers AR. Just not as deadly and doesn't have the distance. Until I get an AR or AK, my ruger is ready to roll.
I guess it depends on the ammo as well. I have a good variety and I love that I can carry 1000+ rounds very easily.

[Mjollnir]

I work in Trauma center's ER and have seen hundreds and hundreds of gunshot wounds inflicted by a wide range of calibers and loads. I've seen large manly men brought down by .22's and seen a tiny 5' tall 95lb girl who drove herself to the ER after being shot through the shoulder and in the face with a .45acp. I've talked at great length with a lot of other health care professionals(EMS, RN's, ER DR's, Trauma Dr's, Critical Care RN's, Medical examiners, etc) and various LEOs who have investigated and/or been involved in shootings. Bullet diameter is not the biggest factor in stopping a threat quickly.

Shot placement, bullet penetration and the on board capacity to make the necessary set-up and/or follow up shots are the key factors. Statistical data is interesting and all but in reality the numbers mean absolutely nothing. They account for bullet diameter alone and don't take into account shot placement, body position/angle, load type, clothing, round impacting other objects prior to hitting subject in question, etc,etc.

I personally wouldn't feel undergunned with a reliable .22lr with at least ten round mags. I understand what it can do, what it can't and what I need to do to use it effectively.

[Patriot Prepper]

At this time my ruger 10/22 is my MBR. I got 25 round mags and it can deal just as quick as my brothers AR. Just not as deadly and doesn't have the distance. Until I get an AR or AK, my ruger is ready to roll.
I guess it depends on the ammo as well. I have a good variety and I love that I can carry 1000+ rounds very easily.

You hit the nail on the head. The .22 LR is not nearly as "deadly" at least not quickly. And you are right it does not have the distance.

It also does not have the accuracy. My buddies shoot their ARs every week at 600 yards and can hit center mass every time, using iron sights. Not possible with a .22 LR

Defending on which Load Bearing Vest I am using I can carry 8 to 12 fully loaded AR mags in the pouches, that's between 240 to 360 rounds of 5.56 cartridges. More if I need to. I can also change the mags really fast. Wonder how many mags would someone need to carry 1,000 rounds of .22LR?

Hope you get your AR or AK soon!!! Keep on Prepping

[Patriot Prepper]

I'd say that the .22 is an important option. I believe it's the most important food producing weapon in my gun case. Small game is a much more prevelant, reliable source of food than larger animals where I am. It's also very light weight and shoots very light rounds. Last week I drove over 700 miles from home in order to back-pack in the mountains. I packed some items in my trunk to get me home just in case the lights went out while I was up there. The long gun I brought...my stainless steel, scoped Marlin model 60 .22 with a brick of ammo. I carried a .380 pocket pistol for the hike. Not exactly the most combat effective guns, but they were the lightest weapons I would be able to hump under those circumstances. I could have brought the AR-15, a shotgun or an AK, but I didn't want to pack an expensive armory in my trunk and the amount of ammo I would be able to carry for those weapons types wouldn't be enough to feed me for the walk home. So I hate to admit it, but a .22 rifle is my choice for a long distance bug-out. You simply can not carry enough ammo to feed a larger rifle. I definately agree the .22 isn't my go to defensive arm, but there are times I could see it filling that role.

This thread is about DEFENSIVE terminal ballistics for preppers. Not so much about backpacking or hunting. In a bug out situation, I believe that defense is critical. More so than hunting. Ina defensive situation you need a defensive calibre. This thread is to shed light on the fact that the .22LR is not designed as a defensive round. It is designed as a hunting round for small varmints and sport.

The AR can be used for hunting small game, if you use a varmint round. The rifle is light and is a great defensive tool.

Defending on which Load Bearing Vest I am using I can carry 8 to 12 fully loaded AR mags in the pouches, that's between 240 to 360 rounds of 5.56 cartridges. More if I need to. I can also change the mags really fast. Wonder how many mags would someone need to carry that many rounds of .22LR? How fast could they reload?

There's a reason why no military in the world, that I know of, has ever used the .22LR as a main battle rifle.

[Patriot Prepper]

I work in Trauma center's ER and have seen hundreds and hundreds of gunshot wounds inflicted by a wide range of calibers and loads. I've seen large manly men brought down by .22's and seen a tiny 5' tall 95lb girl who drove herself to the ER after being shot through the shoulder and in the face with a .45acp. I've talked at great length with a lot of other health care professionals(EMS, RN's, ER DR's, Trauma Dr's, Critical Care RN's, Medical examiners, etc) and various LEOs who have investigated and/or been involved in shootings. Bullet diameter is not the biggest factor in stopping a threat quickly.

Shot placement, bullet penetration and the on board capacity to make the necessary set-up and/or follow up shots are the key factors. Statistical data is interesting and all but in reality the numbers mean absolutely nothing. They account for bullet diameter alone and don't take into account shot placement, body position/angle, load type, clothing, round impacting other objects prior to hitting subject in question, etc,etc.

I personally wouldn't feel undergunned with a reliable .22lr with at least ten round mags. I understand what it can do, what it can't and what I need to do to use it effectively.

You must have been working in the ER a long long time or you work in a bad area. Jumping jiminy. I live in South Florida war zone and we don't get that many gun shot wounds. The statistics that I spoke of are taken from real incidents and indicate that caliber size has a great impact on first shot stopping power. Not sure if your "great in length" discussions were about first round stopping power. If your read the OP I concede that the .22LR is a deadly round - my cousin was shot and killed by a .22LR.

My point is in reference to the terminal ballistics of a round. Not whether a round is lethal. I am referring to a round being a defensive round. The .22 LR is simply not a defensive round. The .22 is designed and best used as a small varmint round or a sporting round.

Everyone who uses a gun professionally is highly aware of shot placement. Shot placement? Hmm - maybe your are talking about Vito Corleone having a couple of guys holding the bad guy and placing a shot under the skull. Every sane person strives for perfect shot placement. However in the real world in a real gun fight, it does not always happen. Attempting to place the shot is a bit more difficult than many people think. When someone is moving and shooting at you, and you are moving and shooting, even hitting center mass is difficult. If using a .22LR you would have to hit the central nervous system to be certain of stopping an assailant with the first hit. In the gun fights that I experienced, it was difficult enough to hit center mass - let alone trying to hit a vital organ, CNS, or a head shot.

If caliber is not critically important in reference to stopping power, why do you think so many police department are dumping the 9mm and packing a .40 cal? Because they believe it has more stopping power. I do not know of one LEO who would trade their service weapon for a .22LR - or anyone in the military who would trade their AR for a .22LR. It would be insanity. The FBI does extensive testing on defensive ammo and the .22LR would not come close to passing any of those tests.

I do not know of anyone in LE, or military who would not feel outgunned in a conflict if they were only holding a .22LR.

Even though you might not feel outgunned, its a simple fact, if you use a .22LR against someone with a real defensive round, you are outgunned.

Stopping power, in part, can be measured by the amount of energy that is transferred into the body. The .22LR delivers about 120 foot pounds of energy from the muzzle - not all of it may be transfered if it passes through the body. A .380 pistol caliber has 200 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) energy for JHP. A 9mm has about 320 ft-lbs. The .45 ACP has 400 foot pounds.

Also you could compare would area in square inches and the .22LR comes up short every time. It is lethal but not an effective defense round.

This is a quote from a chuckhawks.com -- "The .22 Long Rifle high velocity and hyper velocity hollow point ammunition allows humane hunting of game up to about 7 pounds in weight at .22 ranges with solid hits in the heart/lung area." Most bad guys weigh a bit more than 7 pounds. And yes, I know of guys who shoot deer with the .22LR even in places where it is illegal. And sometimes they are lucky enough to hit a vital organ. But usually the deer runs off, bleeds out, and experiences a painful death. An yes, there are incidents where a .22LR is used in a defensive situation and stops the criminal with one shot. But the truth is, and the reality is, the .22LR is not considered an effective defensive round. As far I as know it has never been used anywhere in the world as a main battle rifle. No LE agencies use it as a service round. That is reality.

If you rely on the .22LR - you are in fact outgunned. But you might be a quick guy who can draw fast, jump around, and dodge bullets - you might be the Edward Michael "Bear" Grylls of gun fighting - if you are, then knock yourself out and use .22LR when facing a group of ganstas drawing down on you with AKs or their 10MMs. As for me, I'll stick with my 9mm and .45s in pistol and 5.56 - 308 - and larger calibers in a rifle. Caliber counts baby.

This thread was written to dispel the myth of the .22 LR having first shot stopping power. Many individuals feel they are adequately armed for a self defense situation using a .22LR. This thread is to convince those individuals to consider a more effective round. It could help save their lives.

[WILL]

This thread is about DEFENSIVE terminal ballistics for preppers. Not so much about backpacking or hunting. In a bug out situation, I believe that defense is critical. More so than hunting. Ina defensive situation you need a defensive calibre. This thread is to shed light on the fact that the .22LR is not designed as a defensive round. It is designed as a hunting round for small varmints and sport.

The AR can be used for hunting small game, if you use a varmint round. The rifle is light and is a great defensive tool.

Defending on which Load Bearing Vest I am using I can carry 8 to 12 fully loaded AR mags in the pouches, that's between 240 to 360 rounds of 5.56 cartridges. More if I need to. I can also change the mags really fast. Wonder how many mags would someone need to carry that many rounds of .22LR? How fast could they reload?

There's a reason why no military in the world, that I know of, has ever used the .22LR as a main battle rifle.

I understand that your threads focus is to say the .22 isn't an ideal defensive round. I agree. I was simply pointing out a circumstance that happened to me just last week where a .22 was my primary choice for a defensive/ utility firearm. I was looking at the posibility of having to cover over 700 miles to get home in a lights-out type disaster. So what kind of firearm and ammo can I carry thet will keep me alive for over 700 miles? There was only one answer, the .22 with a brick of ammo. It would probably take me 6 months to make that journey, and there is just no way I can carry 550 rounds of ammo for my AK or AR. It simply weighs too much. God bless you if you can still hump your AR+ 550 .223 rounds + all your gear + stuff your family may need, because I'm just getting a little too old for that these days. So the final answer for me on if a .22 is the right choice for a defensive gun is.....it depends. There are situations where a .22 is a great choice for your primary weapon.

[Patriot Prepper]

I understand that your threads focus is to say the .22 isn't an ideal defensive round. I agree. I was simply pointing out a circumstance that happened to me just last week where a .22 was my primary choice for a defensive/ utility firearm. I was looking at the posibility of having to cover over 700 miles to get home in a lights-out type disaster. So what kind of firearm and ammo can I carry thet will keep me alive for over 700 miles? There was only one answer, the .22 with a brick of ammo. It would probably take me 6 months to make that journey, and there is just no way I can carry 550 rounds of ammo for my AK or AR. It simply weighs too much. God bless you if you can still hump your AR+ 550 .223 rounds + all your gear + stuff your family may need, because I'm just getting a little too old for that these days. So the final answer for me on if a .22 is the right choice for a defensive gun is.....it depends. There are situations where a .22 is a great choice for your primary weapon.

I think the .22LR is a great survival gun - not so great defensive gun. In your situation bugging out sounds like it could turn into a long drawn out affair. I am assuming that you could be facing road blocks where you cannot use a vehicle, leaving you with no other option than trying to hoof it. If you are traveling 700 miles and there are places to hunt, then a .22LR would be a valuable tool for bagging a few varmints. I love the .22 and shoot them all the time. If you have several people with you it would be nice to have a shotgun (for birds) and an AR along with that .22 - not sure if you will be alone.

Your situation sounds more like survival than defense. In the survival part the .22 will work fine. Excellent choice. In a defense situation, as you know, the .22 would put you at a disadvantage against the AK or AR. Again using your head and staying out of harms way by avoiding conflict is smart in all circumstances. And hopefully that is what we all are able to do.

What type of terrain will you be traveling through? Hope it's not too mountainous. To get 700 miles in 6 months you would be covering about 4 miles a day. In Florida the land is flat but there are some swampy areas if someone hikes off road. I have property and stop offs with supplies hidden along the way to one of the main retreats. Our main retreat in the Southern US is about 750 miles - on foot it could take 3 - 6 months. If you can, it would be good to cache some supplies along your route or connect with people along the way. Hunting and traveling is not easy. Having food supplies and places to stop off would sure make the trip easier.

Our Western retreat is over 2,000 miles away. I like it out West but may not even attempt to make it there. It is much more defendable than our Southern retreat. The Southern retreat is not as isolated and harder to defend, but it is closer and well stocked. We have several airplanes that we will use to bug out. Of course we also have other methods of transportation if flying in not an option due to EMP etc.

I have several retreats spread out around the country. Depending where I am when the SHTF, I also might be quite a distance from my destination. Hopefully I can use one of our Cessnas and fly over everything. If not, I will hoof it. Hopefully I will bug out before the SHTF and be at the retreat. I hope you can connect with fellow preppers along the way to your destination as well as have some caches along the way.

[Mjollnir]

You must have been working in the ER a long long time or you work in a bad area. Jumping jiminy. I live in South Florida war zone and we don't get that many gun shot wounds.

Been there quite a while, we are the only level one trauma center in a 150 mile radius and the city has a significant gang/drug/******* problem.

The statistics that I spoke of are taken from real incidents and indicate that caliber size has a great impact on first shot stopping power. Not sure if your "great in length" discussions were about first round stopping power. If your read the OP I concede that the .22LR is a deadly round - my cousin was shot and killed by a .22LR.

Please by all means cite your sources. I'm and avid student of the subject so I eagerly looking forward to seeing the data on these real incidents.


My point is in reference to the terminal ballistics of a round. Not whether a round is lethal. I am referring to a round being a defensive round. The .22 LR is simply not a defensive round. The .22 is designed and best used as a small varmint round or a sporting round.

Any round used in a defensive situation by defenition has become a defensive round.

Everyone who uses a gun professionally is highly aware of shot placement. Shot placement? Hmm - maybe your are talking about Vito Corleone having a couple of guys holding the bad guy and placing a shot under the skull.

Not familar with this incident but no, not what I was talking about.

Every sane person strives for perfect shot placement. However in the real world in a real gun fight, it does not always happen. Attempting to place the shot is a bit more difficult than many people think. When someone is moving and shooting at you, and you are moving and shooting, even hitting center mass is difficult.

Agreed. It can certainly be difficult. You have to take what you can get, when you can get it and set up where you can until you can deliver the fight stopping blow.

If using a .22LR you would have to hit the central nervous system to be certain of stopping an assailant with the first hit.

True of any handgun round. The only "certain" way to stop an assailant with a first round shot is shot placement to the CNS with a round that has enough penetration to shut it down.

In the gun fights that I experienced, it was difficult enough to hit center mass - let alone trying to hit a vital organ, CNS, or a head shot.

If caliber is not critically important in reference to stopping power, why do you think so many police department are dumping the 9mm and packing a .40 cal? Because they believe it has more stopping power.

Actually, the majority of the reason is due to reliably expanding bullet technology(limiting overpenetration and thus shoot through liability) of the time, performance against auto glass, politics and public relations, and largely being cut a deal on the new pistols chambered in the caliber when it was first introduced. Massad Ayoob has talked and written about the 9mm to 40S&W transition on numerous occasions. I know of several PDs that are still using 9mm with modern bullet technology with great effect.

I do not know of one LEO who would trade their service weapon for a .22LR - or anyone in the military who would trade their AR for a .22LR. It would be insanity.

I wasn't aware that was the reason for this thread. I was under the impression you were just bagging on the .22lr not that people were forsaking all other calibers at their disposal in lieu of the .22lr. If that is the case then I agree they may be better served with their current weapons.

The FBI does extensive testing on defensive ammo and the .22LR would not come close to passing any of those tests.

I would love to see the FBI's official test data if you could provide it.

I do not know of anyone in LE, or military who would not feel outgunned in a conflict if they were only holding a .22LR.

Even though you might not feel outgunned, its a simple fact, if you use a .22LR against someone with a real defensive round, you are outgunned.

Sorry grasshopper, more often than not it is the mechanic and not the tool.

Stopping power, in part, can be measured by the amount of energy that is transferred into the body. The .22LR delivers about 120 foot pounds of energy from the muzzle - not all of it may be transfered if it passes through the body. A .380 pistol caliber has 200 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) energy for JHP. A 9mm has about 320 ft-lbs. The .45 ACP has 400 foot pounds.

Also you could compare would area in square inches and the .22LR comes up short every time. It is lethal but not an effective defense round.

This is a quote from a chuckhawks.com -- "The .22 Long Rifle high velocity and hyper velocity hollow point ammunition allows humane hunting of game up to about 7 pounds in weight at .22 ranges with solid hits in the heart/lung area." Most bad guys weigh a bit more than 7 pounds. And yes, I know of guys who shoot deer with the .22LR even in places where it is illegal. And sometimes they are lucky enough to hit a vital organ. But usually the deer runs off, bleeds out, and experiences a painful death.

I'm an avid hunter myself. When and where I grew up it was still legal to take deer with rimfire. In addition to cleanly taking countless whitetails I've taken numerous varieties of game and put down all types of livestock with the .22lr. So you'll have to forgive me if my opinion differs from Chuck's.

An yes, there are incidents where a .22LR is used in a defensive situation and stops the criminal with one shot. But the truth is, and the reality is, the .22LR is not considered an effective defensive round.

By you. The people who have used them successfully that I've encountered might disagreee.

As far I as know it has never been used anywhere in the world as a main battle rifle. No LE agencies use it as a service round. That is reality.

Except for the Israelis with their silenced Ruger 10/22's and the Russians with their SV-99 sniper rifles.

If you rely on the .22LR - you are in fact outgunned. But you might be a quick guy who can draw fast, jump around, and dodge bullets - you might be the Edward Michael "Bear" Grylls of gun fighting - if you are, then knock yourself out and use .22LR when facing a group of ganstas drawing down on you with AKs or their 10MMs. As for me, I'll stick with my 9mm and .45s in pistol and 5.56 - 308 - and larger calibers in a rifle. Caliber counts baby.

This thread was written to dispel the myth of the .22 LR having first shot stopping power. Many individuals feel they are adequately armed for a self defense situation using a .22LR. This thread is to convince those individuals to consider a more effective round. It could help save their lives.

Plain and simple........ there are more effective rounds. But the myth of one shot stops not only applies to .22lr but all handgun rounds and many rifle rounds. Any round can fail to stop if it is not put where it will do the most good(for you) regardless of diameter. Don't rely on "one shot stops", shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

[Mjollnir]

The AR can be used for hunting small game, if you use a varmint round. The rifle is light and is a great defensive tool.

I would have advise against this. I've shot rabbits, perched grouse and turkeys with a 14.5" AR and 45gr WWB JHP varmit loads. Grouse was total loss and there wasn't much left of the rabbit and turkey either. Varmit rounds are designed to fragment extremely rapidly and cause a llot of meat loss/destruction on small game. Had better results with cheap wolf poly coated casing rounds. They move at slower speeds and due to the thicker jacketing and bullet design they don't fragment hardly at all. Just the same, aim for the tip of the nose on rabbits and head/neck shots on large birds.

[Grand58742]

Stopping power, in part, can be measured by the amount of energy that is transferred into the body. The .22LR delivers about 120 foot pounds of energy from the muzzle - not all of it may be transfered if it passes through the body. A .380 pistol caliber has 200 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) energy for JHP. A 9mm has about 320 ft-lbs. The .45 ACP has 400 foot pounds.

Actually, not true as indicated by Doctor Gary Roberts.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

Penetration, temporary and permanent crush cavities has everything to do with wounding rather than energy transfer.

We can all agree the .22 LR isn't the best or first choice for a defensive caliber, but it certainly beats a sharp stick. And if I had a choice between screaming bad words at an enemy or having a .22 LR, it's a simple choice.

[rockriver]

patriot.
thanks for the post..

i've learned a lot.
rr

[Patriot Prepper]

I would have advise against this. I've shot rabbits, perched grouse and turkeys with a 14.5" AR and 45gr WWB JHP varmit loads. Grouse was total loss and there wasn't much left of the rabbit and turkey either. Varmit rounds are designed to fragment extremely rapidly and cause a llot of meat loss/destruction on small game. Had better results with cheap wolf poly coated casing rounds. They move at slower speeds and due to the thicker jacketing and bullet design they don't fragment hardly at all. Just the same, aim for the tip of the nose on rabbits and head/neck shots on large birds.

Hey hot shot. Guess you were not able to place your shots accurately. Gee wiz, missed the head? Wonder how you good you would be placing shots if the rabbit were shooting back at you.