ran a test ak vs ar

[rockriver]

trying to decide which to buy ak or ar
i went to a range with a fella who knew a lot more than me.

we had an ar name brand with some of the new fancy dancy plastic high dollar mags and brass ammo.
we had an ak romanian wasr10 with the wallowed out mag well and some rusty mags and steel ammo.

i knew that pretty ar would be the winner and let me know which to buy.
the ar was brand new. the ak was used.
--
the ar made a nice first shot... then the next 3 rounds jammed.
the ak just went bang. every time.

ar we jamming
ak no jamming.

wish i could sing.

[Mikeg175]

It's funny I see these posts all the time and I wonder who set these Ar's up , I have 3 Ar's and one Ak atm . I run any ammo/mag through any of them and other then the Ar out shooting the AK everytime , I don't notice any reliability issues . I run steel mags , pmags , you name it and they all cycle fine . AK's are some reliable ( almost said nice , but they aren't ) weapons and I won't talk bad about them , but I see too many people who have Ar's and don't set them up properly . Unfortunately one of the best things about Ar's is how modifiable they are , the worst thing about them is how modifiable they are . You can bang and beat on a AK all day long and they will send lead down range pretty much nonstop . An Ar will do the same with a lot more accuracy . Once a person starts modifying an AR it can go downhill quickly and most people don't buy mil-spec AR's they buy the latest and greatest and start swapping parts and then wonder why they act up . If you spend the extra money and put mil-spec parts in your AR , then you should have no issues with any mag or ammo . I know when I get mags for my AK , I have to almost always file down parts to make it work right , because AK's are slapped together so cheaply their tolerances are so vast that most mags are set to be able to work in a wide spectrum .
I know when Shtf I will grab my Ar and head out before I grab my AK , my Ak is just there in case all I can get later down the road is Ak ammo . Now the one Ar type weapon that I have that is finicky is my AR-10 lol , it seems to only like the good ammo , cheap stuff , does nothing but FTL all the time hehe . So other then being able to reach and touch someone at 700 yrds it will sit . I am adding another .308 battle rifle though , I don't like having a finicky gun and my AR-10 is very finicky . My AK shotgun is the same way , once it cycles a round it will let them all go , but getting a mag to insert takes filing and hoping it still wont drop out the bottom . Now my Benelli M-4 , point shoot , shoot , shoot , shoot , shoot , shoot , shoot , shoot , reload . But once again , I paid alot to have super reliable guns . I don't but pretty , I buy what will work , when I want it to work .

[Bill Foster]

Yo, Yo, dat be jammin.
My bud at the range did an AR v. AK test...in Desert Storm. Whenever he and his unit ran across an AK, they would grab it. If the SHTF, they would use it...not just because of a reliability factor, and that the AK could go full auto, but when it was empty, just throw it down. He didn't have to clean it, he didn't have to account for the number of rounds that were used, and he wouldn't worry about being procecuted for shooting a bad guy, after all, the bullets didn't match his rifle. BTW, he never had a jam or misfire in several fire fights, just the problem of getting the mag in the well.

[rice paddy daddy]

Long ago and far away, I was issued an M16A1. I learned it must be kept clean, not always possible in extreme environments. Perhaps the design has been improved over the last 40+ years, I wouldn't really know, I don't own one.
I do own a WASR 10, simply because the left wing loons don't want me to have one. The design is simple, robust, and can be maintained by illiterate tribesmen, so it must have something going for it. I don't think these tribesmen could keep an AR running very long.
In Basic Training we werre firing our M14's for record, in rain and mud; mud that clogged the peep sight so I had to peer around it, mud so thick that the bolt blew out of my weapon, never to be found (I had to pay for it, according to the Army I "lost" it). The M16 I later had would have quit loooong before that M14 did.
For general useage here in the United States an AR will perform well, and I would not discourage anyone who wants one from buying it. I just don't feel the need for one, if I want to fire 5.56mm I have a Mini 14, and for playing "you bet your life" I have other options as well.

[Klayton]

come on rice paddy daddy, r u sure u werent given the orignal M16 (no forward assist)??? hehe just messin' with ya man. :)

[Bearman202]

In basic training in the Air Force, we qualified with the M-16. We were using .223 then, (they use .22 now) and the very first shot out of the rifle jammed. My first thought was, "What a POS." Since then, I have owned a Colt AR-15, and I could not keep that thing from jamming. I got so disgusted with it I sold it. The guy that bought it used high-dollar ammo, and never had a problem. My attitude is that I want a rifle that will use whatever I throw at it, so I'm going with a Cetme with VZ2008 backups. J&G Sales has a deal on them right now. They're an AK knockoff, but they're Czech, and all the reviews I've read of them are glowing. The only negative I could see was that they won't use a standard AK magazine. Midway USA has a deal on mags for them, so I already ordered some. Hey, accuracy is important, but it's even MORE important that the thing goes off when you pull the trigger....

[Davar]

If the AR was new, it may have been too dry. ARs like to be pretty wet (oil/lube), which is one of there downfalls. A dry AR doesn't like to cycle rounds after the first shot.

[Benn Gleck]

They're both good rifle's with their own good points.

You should own both or several of both.

[lungs]

plastic mags, real high class stuff, right? :-) sheesh, where do these people come from, really?

[RobertJ]

All these " ...every AR-15 I have shot or seen shot jam blah, blah, blah" Drive me nuts. Yes AR-15s fail... all small arms fail But there are so many AR-15s out there they seem to be seen in more and larger numbers at the range and in classes. That being said, The most common AR-15 failures I have seen in class are the home brews put together by WECSOGS (Wiley E. Coyotee Scool Of Gunsmithing) These ARs are built on the cheap, with cheap parts and without the proper tools, jigs,and know how. yes it can be done at home but we so often see the results. Everyone who has a homebrew says I built it for XXX dollars. Then they go on and say I saved so much money over X,Y,Z, brand I bought an extra lower to build another. Has anyone bothered to wonder why the parts are so cheap? Out of spec? Did you mic. the holes pins? detents/ springs? etc? Were the parts made off shore? of inferior metals? Cheap is cheap for a reason. Have name brands of high reputation gone down or choke? you betcha... usually a worn part or spring because the average joe keeps on plugging away with his rifle for years and thousands of rounds without a rebuild saying "It still goes boom when I pull the trigger" Dose anyone who is not an armorer/smith know when to replace the wear parts in a firearm? and not just an AR, all firarms have a "shelf life"

When Is the last time you had your firearms been taken in for a checkup? Do you know your round count on them? Did you buy used? get the round count from the previous owner? Did you ask if it was a homebrew? do you think he/she told you the truth about it? Even the safe queens need a checkup.

The other arguement I hear is from the individuals who say "when I was in the service the M-16s/M=4s/ yadda, yadda, yadda from... name your war/conflict/action... Vietnam to present It was a jamomatic or failed. Yup we all know that the AR/M-16 platform needs cleaning and most importantly run wet (read as lubed) well most servicemen I know can break an anvil and many take shortcuts in cleaning, now I wont lump everyone in this especially the Marines and the various Special forces. Admit it GIs are hard on equipment. Did the small arms make it in for regular maintance? I know some guard units still using vietnam era M=16s and they really are past service life, And yes its man made and it will fail and break, usually at the worst possible time... hello mr. murphy.

I have had my Glock go down in class... recoil spring. I have had My Maddi AK go down... broken hammer. My main AR went down once... blown primer lodged under trigger and sear, down for the count in that class. My other AR went down with a broken/worn extractor spring with well over 1000 rounds of wolf that class, sorry it was all I could get for that weekend.

To recap, there are more questionably built Ars out there and more ARs on the range then any other rifle. So there are going to be more reports of them going down, its just a numbers game. AKs, FALs, HKs,and a Galil All failed in class/range sessions as well, due to same factors mentioned above. Please people if you are going to trust a firearm to save yourself and your loved ones buy a quality built one you can most afford. Its like anything else mechanical, it needs regular check ups by compitant gunsmiths skilled in that firearm platform. Know your round counts and maitance schedules just like on your automobile of choice. Its the ford chevy arguement of the firarm world their both great platforms and both have pros and cons. Just a tool in the tool box for me and each tool has a specific purpose it excells at, No one firearm dose it all, thats why a squad in the us services is set up the way it is with the different weapons platforms.
Sorry so long winded

[Lowdown3]

Well to be clear- NONE of the AR's I've owned that were total POS were "home brews." NONE of the dozen or so "friends" have used with me in the field were "home brews." My older SF buddy from Vietnam who first turned me on to CAR15's in the late 80's who would argue over the viability of the AR, when his had a catastrophic jam in front of me, it also was not a "home brew."

Can't speak for the dozens upon dozens I've seen go to $hit at the 80+ classes I've attended (NOT all firearms classes but most were), I never asked to inspect and ask them was it brand A, brand B, Brand c or frankenstein brand.

As to the "only idiots don't clean their AR's" comments (the most comment retort on this)- I can guarantee you that not all of these current and former military, SF vets, military armorers, LEO's, firearms instructors, etc. let their weapons go to pot.

Yes anything can fail, without a doubt but facts are facts.

I've been to more than a few classes dedicated specifically to the AK platform. Some of these were junk "home brew" AK's, a good portion of them were bottom of the barrel Romanian's. The failure rate was CONSIDERABLY lower (like maybe one per class out of 8-15 rifles). So your argument of "more AR's are at classes so you see more of them fail" doesn't really go far.

The bottom line is it's YOUR decision. A lot of people make the decision based on using the weapon only a few times during the year, not really shooting all that much, cleaning the living crap out of it, babying the crap out of it, etc. I don't think that's realistic for a weapon that you are going to DEPEND YOUR LIFE ON in a bad situation.

People come to me for private weapons training. They tell me jokingly "I'll bring my AK cause I know your an AK guy." I tell them to bring whatever weapon they really plan on using if TSHTF. Often times the first time they will arrive with an AR. I'll tell them straight up, I have no problems with you using that, but I want your mind in the right place. If that weapon fails on you during a team drill, not only are you dead, your partner is likely dead also. That's the reality of the situation. I have never busted anyone's chops for bringing an AR to a private class, I've simply told them to follow their conscience along the lines I mentioned above. Often times I hear the "dude it's NEVER FAILED ON ME" speech and I just smile, tell them that's great, then we ought not see a problem with it.

One guy said that, he was a loud boisterious BS'er so when his AR went down and he was relegated to using it as a single shot and using the charging handle to load EACH round during a team drill, he wanted to end the drill early. No way Jose, finish the job with the musket! He left his buddies hanging, he realized and his buddies realized it. Real life doesn't have a "restart game" button.

To his credit, he took that rifle to a gunshow the next weekend and got rid of it.

Just KNOW your gear, train with it, not just shoot 50 rounds once a year from a bench, or attend one NRA rifle class a year and call it good.

You want to find out NOW if something isn't 110% reliable, NOW while you can repair/replace/get something else.

I'm known as an "AK guy" not because I've used one since I was 15, but because I believe in them. I also had a couple AR's long long ago. If I could find a truly reliable one, I'd own one in an instant.

Ask SGL21-61, Protus, Noble, Hawkeye, all these folks are AK converts :)

[Pop_45]

I've owned 2 Ak's. One was a pretty good rifle.

one was a POS. The POS was an under folder. I think it's called a paratrooper model?? Any way, the thing felt like it was stamped out of my old Tonka trucks from when I was a kid. It had uneven tack welds, and couldn't hit a man sized target at 100 yards. Needless to say, I traded it for a Jennings 9mm.

The good one was, like a said, a pretty good rifle. It felt and handled better, and would shoot minute of felon out to about 350 yards. (which is about how far my eyes will accommodate). I ended up having to sell it because of a personal SHTF issue.

Now I own an M4gery. No particular reason, other that I had never owned one before and wanted to try it.

Side by side comparison. The AR is lighter than the AK. .223 ammo is lighter as well (but not by much) and the AK seemed to have a lower point of aim when shouldering the weapon. These are my un-scientific, and subjective opinions.

Which do I prefer??? Can't really say, I like both and would depend on either one to save my life, and that of my family.

[protus]

Ask SGL21-61, Protus, Noble, Hawkeye, all these folks are AK converts

for the record i had less distance to be converted as i already shot a 762 rifle.....i just down loaded ....for recoil reasons of course :)

all those others,,,well....man they were a lost bunch :P

[rice paddy daddy]

come on rice paddy daddy, r u sure u werent given the orignal M16 (no forward assist)??? hehe just messin' with ya man. :)

Nah, the A1 had the forward assist. But the original M16's had one good thing going for them - the 3-prong flash hider was pretty good at popping the baling wire on a case of C-Rats.:cool:

[1Admin]

I've owned 2 Ak's. One was a pretty good rifle.

one was a POS. The POS was an under folder. I think it's called a paratrooper model?? Any way, the thing felt like it was stamped out of my old Tonka trucks from when I was a kid. It had uneven tack welds, and couldn't hit a man sized target at 100 yards. Needless to say, I traded it for a Jennings 9mm.

The good one was, like a said, a pretty good rifle. It felt and handled better, and would shoot minute of felon out to about 350 yards. (which is about how far my eyes will accommodate). I ended up having to sell it because of a personal SHTF issue.

Now I own an M4gery. No particular reason, other that I had never owned one before and wanted to try it.

Side by side comparison. The AR is lighter than the AK. .223 ammo is lighter as well (but not by much) and the AK seemed to have a lower point of aim when shouldering the weapon. These are my un-scientific, and subjective opinions.

Which do I prefer??? Can't really say, I like both and would depend on either one to save my life, and that of my family.

I'm guessing a Romanian or otherwise had "Century Arms International" stamped on it somewhere.

FWIW, I've owned 3 Romanians. First one was brought in around 99-2000 and was pretty nice for an AK, shoot well, no canted gas tube, front sight, etc. like is common with Century weapons.

2nd and 3rd both had canted gas tubes and front sights. One just a little, one an awful lot. Sent one to a smith and the fix was $125. or so. The 3rd I never had fixed and was the first to go out the door when I needed some cash.

The problem is, people will drop $1000. on an AR without batting an eye, but are unwilling to drop $800. on a quality AK. They go and pay $350. for a Romanian Century and then complain about it.

That being said, SOME of the Century's are decent, but I'm thinking it's about 1 in 5 or 6. I've seen some that make good hits at 300 yards in high wind. And I've seen others that needed a 4x8 sheet of plywood and the zero target put in the center of it, in order to get it zeroed...