ran a test ak vs ar

[Currahee]

People who carry guns for a living and have a choice (competitors or high end SF) cary an AR based system. Period

[protus]

People who carry guns for a living and have a choice (competitors or high end SF) cary an AR based system. Period

they have a logistics train...will we when the time comes for us to carry ours for a living.......;)

( come on...bite the ar vs ak de-bait......) LOL :P

[1Admin]

I've thrown this out there on most every survival forum, I've been hesitant to do it here on my forum but here goes-

I'd be more than happy to meet anyone within 5 hours of S. GA to hold a "Pepsi Challenge."

Bring the nicest, newest, shinest AR you have. I'll bring the nastiest Old AK I can find. We will shoot till one jams, loser buys ALL the ammo, gas and lunch.

In 10 years of offering this on the net I have yet to have one taker. Period. ;)

[Grand58742]

Would this be the inappropriate time to say "pssst...you need to get an M1A and join the rest of the civilized world."

:D

However, as firearms are tools and the toolbox can never be too full, I'd end the debate with what I've done, get both, be happy with both and learn to use both effectively. Your "go-to" rifle should be the one you trust most. Some folks swear by the AK, others the AR, more still the M1A, others like CETMEs, and how about that Mini-14, but wait, there's the FAL as well.

We could go on, but the de-bait as Protus puts it will NEVER end. I've seen crappy M4s in my life that were laser rifles, but jammed every five rounds. I've seen crappy AKs before (just look at any gun show) that would shoot any time you pulled the trigger but wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. My personal M1A is picky about ammo and won't feed cheaper ammo for nothing, however, feeds match ammo like it was made for it. Mini-14s are supposedly inaccurate. FALs cost a lot these days. CETMEs and G3 styles aren't user friendly on the controls as well as aftermarket mods being expensive.

THERE IS NO PERFECT SHTF RIFLE! EXCEPT IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!

Some folks will swear by the AK until the day they die. Others will never pick up anything that doesn't have a gas impingement system. Others still won't touch anything that isn't marked ".308" or "7.62x51mm"

Having said that, I do plan on getting another AK eventually with a folding stock. I don't care for the side folders (at least the wire stocks) and am looking for a decent aftermarket side folder or under folder. No, I'm not bandwagon.

[Pop_45]

Would this be the inappropriate time to say "pssst...you need to get an M1A and join the rest of the civilized world."

:D

However, as firearms are tools and the toolbox can never be too full, I'd end the debate with what I've done, get both, be happy with both and learn to use both effectively. Your "go-to" rifle should be the one you trust most. Some folks swear by the AK, others the AR, more still the M1A, others like CETMEs, and how about that Mini-14, but wait, there's the FAL as well.

We could go on, but the de-bait as Protus puts it will NEVER end. I've seen crappy M4s in my life that were laser rifles, but jammed every five rounds. I've seen crappy AKs before (just look at any gun show) that would shoot any time you pulled the trigger but wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. My personal M1A is picky about ammo and won't feed cheaper ammo for nothing, however, feeds match ammo like it was made for it. Mini-14s are supposedly inaccurate. FALs cost a lot these days. CETMEs and G3 styles aren't user friendly on the controls as well as aftermarket mods being expensive.

THERE IS NO PERFECT SHTF RIFLE! EXCEPT IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!

Some folks will swear by the AK until the day they die. Others will never pick up anything that doesn't have a gas impingement system. Others still won't touch anything that isn't marked ".308" or "7.62x51mm"

Having said that, I do plan on getting another AK eventually with a folding stock. I don't care for the side folders (at least the wire stocks) and am looking for a decent aftermarket side folder or under folder. No, I'm not bandwagon.

That's the same statement I was trying to make, but I failed miserably. I guess the way to put it is: The best gun to have in SHTF is the one in your hands. On a side note, I plan on getting another AK to sit right next to my AR. Maybe they will get together and give me a Galil?

[Mikeg175]

Can I toss my Fn Scar 17 & 16 into the mix ? I have been abusing them for awhile now and at over 5k rounds , I havent had one gun related FTF ot FTE yet , I bet I just jinxed myself . I own a few Ar's love em , I own a Ak love it , but when SHTF I am picking up either my Scar or my M14 .

[Currahee]

I've thrown this out there on most every survival forum, I've been hesitant to do it here on my forum but here goes-

I'd be more than happy to meet anyone within 5 hours of S. GA to hold a "Pepsi Challenge."

Bring the nicest, newest, shinest AR you have. I'll bring the nastiest Old AK I can find. We will shoot till one jams, loser buys ALL the ammo, gas and lunch.

In 10 years of offering this on the net I have yet to have one taker. Period. ;)

How about we make it a realistic test of which weapon is best in combat?

I mean if we want to go by which weapon jams first why not bring an HR single shot shotgun?

Shoot 2 x a basic load, 300 rounds or so,
throw in timed shooting for accuracy with reloads in different positions ranges out to 300 meters
We will come up with abuse tests between strings of fire
malfunctions have to be cleared on the clock

[1Admin]

No problem shooting 300 yards with an AK. I'm not unrealistic, I recognize that even a decent shooter will get about 50-60% hits at that range with an AK.

And I haven't too many AR shooters do a lot better than that without optics.

Is the AR technically more accurate- yes, no arguments there. Is the AK more reliable in bad situations (I think that might come in handy being as we are discussing survival situations)- yes without a doubt.

We should probably chill with this. Your obviously very adamant about the AR, and I'm very adamant about the AK. The de-bait as Protus calls it, won't serve to change your mind and won't serve to change my mind. If my mentor who I respect as much as a father couldn't change my mind after both of mine failed (the guy who's failed in front of me right after the "Mine's never jammed" speech), nothing is going to change my mind.

I've often thought if I ever got really stupid again and had the money I'd buy another one and EVERY time I shot it, cleaned it, etc. I'd video it. But even then when jams were caught on camera it wouldn't end it for some folks.

Oh and BTW, I wasn't even talking about "abuse tests", just simply shooting the two of them until one jammed. I abused a beautiful Polytech enough in my teens by sinking it under the mud and picking it out and firing it, filling it with beach sand and then firing it, driving cars over them, etc. to know that "abuse" doesn't mean anything to a real Kalashnikov. I've shot them with half a trigger. I've seen people shoot .223 through a x39 AK. I've seen the cheapie Romaks get a spent cartridge stuck BEHIND the bolt carrier and continue to fire.

"Abuse" wasn't even part of the test, Apples to oranges on that. Just simply shooting to one jammed, that's all, nothing fancy. No driving over them, filling them with mud, etc. did enough of that stupid crap in my teens to rifles that are now worth 4-5 times what we paid for them.

I would add to what Grand said as far as the best rifle is the one you have, with that the best rifle is the one you have and trust implicitly. If that's an AR for you, so be it.

Back to regular programming already in progress...

[Currahee]

So that's a no? No realistic combat AR vs AK test?

[hua man]

This debate is an apple/orange one, to me.

The AR has gas impingement. It can fire a combat load before it NEEDS to be cleaned, and properly cleaned. I had one and it did best on Lake City surplus, not so much on steel cases. Besides, it was designed by a company for profits in the shooter community. It was adopted by the Military because it was smaller and lighter than the M14s at the time.

The AK has a gas piston system. It will keep firing long after a need for cleaning. And it was designed by a man for use by the military. I have fired one on brass and steel case. The AK has been cleaned by a shoelace dipped in engine oil and pulled through, according to Mid-East fighters. And its base system was taken from an earlier model, the SKS, also a designed by the same guy, but the magazine exchange put it above the SKS.

But like it was said above, whatever works for you. However, I want something that can hit my target before target is in range to hit me.

[protus]

So that's a no? No realistic combat AR vs AK test?

only issue i see with what your proposing is most of it is shooter skilled based, not really the guns.

i mean we can all sit here and hash out a "test" that can make both rifles lose...
shoot a small group at 300....the AR will win
put a target behind some kind of cover....will the AR defeat it to ensure a "kill" on the target??
sand in both actions and shoot till a stoppage- most rounds fired wins
make the shooter run 1 mile with his fighting gear and they do a 3 stage timed COF


there is many variables. To make it rifle vs rifle it must be set up as such.

accuracy - vice and bench them both at 100-200-300
reliability- assorted mags and ammo for both- dust/dirt/debris testing could be part of this.combine with the above.
general specs- weight,length

about the only way.

other things such as ergonomics,rifle manipulation,LOP, how it looks, modularity etc are subjective IMHO and open to much interpretation by the user


honestly for me in a shtf rifle i want the most dependable rifle i can have that will cover the most events.
In order to that it may not be the best all around but it will do everything.....from my experience the AK does that.

it allows for fast follow ups( semi auto vs bolt) and larger mags for fast reloading vs 5,8.10 round rifles.
It is lighter than a standard MBR
It's round(x39) can be used for and against multiple threats,game and barriers.
It will cover most ranges we-as survivalist will engage the above - zero to 300m
it has an " intimidation" factor.
It is extremely reliable under harsher than normal circumstances.
In its basic non altered form it is purely K.I.S.S


honestly id love to have a small AR carbine...for fun...would i use one if tossed to me during shtf and i needed a rifle..........sure.....but only if i had my glock.....i know it wont fte/ftf:p

[610Alpha]

Ok it came to me while i was owing this evening why people have an affinity towards the AR platform vs the AK. AR = American Ingenuity vs AK = Russian. There is a cultural bias here that is why we see these discussions. It can be hard for people to wrap their minds around the fact that the Ruskies made an all around good rifle that is resilient to climate and field conditions.


Case closed. :cool:

[1Admin]

So that's a no? No realistic combat AR vs AK test?

So the only "realistic combat" is at 300 yards huh? Hmmmm that's interesting.

Most shootings happen at what distance? What's average engagement distance?

Heck most places down here (wooded areas not out west with big wide open spaces) you can't SEE 300 yards in one direction.

Where are you at partner? Got a place to shoot? I think I made it abundantly clear that the AK is not a distance rifle, but since in your mind all "realistic combat" only happens at distances of 300 yards, I'll be happy to meet and shoot 300 yards with you. As I also said previously, a decent AK shooter will get about 50-60% hits (IME) at that range. But the gun will continue to go bang.

We can shoot a couple thousand rounds at your "realistic combat" range of 300 yards, the AK will get in the 50% hits range like I stated twice now, but the rifle will continue to fire.

I have a 300 yard range in S. Georgia we can use, steel IPSC targets at 100, 200 and 300. Bring 2,000 rounds of ammo, whatever AR you like, have at least 20 mags loaded and ready to go, this won't be a shoot 1 from the bench, eat a donut, smoke a cigarette 5 minutes later shoot another one deal. You can expect to be reloading magazines in under an hour. We will even take a break if your AR starts cooking off rounds like has happened in more than a few classes I've attended. Other than that, expect to use up all that ammo.

To be crystal clear, never said the AK was more accurate, more reliable yes without a doubt.

BTW, how much time/how many years have you owned and ran an AK? What type and how many rounds through?

See, I can talk both sides of this debate cause I've owned both. Owned a CAR15 for about 3-4 years, got rid of it after it and 4-6 others just like it were having rounds seize up in the chamber after being fired (catastrophic jam). The normal FTF jams were commonplace by then, and I see why most AR owners don't mention them. Then in 97 I bought a Colt Match Hbar after being told that I bought "the wrong brand". Loved the one at first, thought all the stories about "not having the right brand" were true, until about a thousand rounds into it, it started doing the same exact thing the CAR15 did. I went through a pile of the fixes that all the experts said would do the trick. The problem persisted. I needed money and I sold it.

So I have owned and used both weapons types. I did 95% or more of all my early training on an AR platform. It wasn't till the mid 90's that I started using the AK in earnest.

So Currahee, how much time do you have on an AK? What model? How many rounds? How many AK specific classes?

So that's a no? No realistic time on BOTH platforms? ;)

[Currahee]

Protus, ergonomics and combat accuracy are very much part of a combat rifle.

The contest...

I said OUT to 300M.

We can hash out a course of fire that includes targets from 10-300 yards with weapons abuse in between. I suggest...

El Pres @ ten yards on IPSC paper = 12 rounds x 8 reps = 96 rounds (time+ penalties)

burry the weapons in dirt dust covers open

10 rnd positions drill, ->standing -> kneeling -> prone thats 10 rnds each on 2/3 IPSC steel @ 100 yards (hits/time) x 3 reps = 90 rounds

bury the weapons in mud w/ dust covers on w/muzzle caps for safety

10 round positions drill except with targets at 100, 200 and 300 X three reps = 90 rounds (hits/time)

then, since I said 300 rounds we take one magazine and stack up cinderblocks filled with dirt... who makes the most disappear at 100 yards?

we both use stock irons to make it even

any malfunctions are cleared on the clock just like combat

Each rep is a contest and the one who wins the most is a winner

AND

To answer your question I had an AK for years. I've put a couple thousand rounds through WASRs, MAK90s and a little out of an Arsenal. I've got no particular beef against AKs if you want a 100 yard ergonomic nightmare of a rifle with crap sights... more power to you. I've got several friends with AKs and have one tucked away safe.

Its all fun talking about guns on the internet right... but when a member of SEAL team six is charging into a building what are the probably carrying? When a delta sniper is working a hiltop in A-stan what are they doing it with? What gun do Aussie and UK Special forces carry? (Even though their big army carries other stuff?) What gun wins every major 3 gun match reliability counts there too, and money is on the line)? What gun dominates service rifle competitions? What do all the high end gun instructors use? What might be the reason for that?

[Hawkeye]

People who carry guns for a living and have a choice (competitors or high end SF) cary an AR based system. Period

I am going to respectfully disagree with the part in blue. I know first hand of a number who prefer the AK, but use the AR platform simply due to the amount of training time they have on it, as well as logistics reasons.