Covert Bug Out

[Matt In Oklahoma]

five viable shooters,six kids (ages 9-13 )

Food for thought on your shooters
At 9 I was hunting by myself as long as I stayed on our property. 13 is the age of our youngest shooter at IPSC. Mentally each would have to be looked at for maturity as no 2 are the same. Wouldnt want an AD in a thunderstorm on a shadow from the lightening ya know.
Primaries, of course not, simply because of mental decision making capacities, defenders defintely. Look at the ages and sizes of any 3rd world dung hole and this is where i'm coming from. Even a 22 has it's place and perimeters must be maintained during stops

[Greg B.]

Matt, this is one of the most agonizing decisions I've ever made. It's one thing to teach gun safety and proper technique, but to be instructing your 12yo. grand daughter on rapid magazine change is heartbreaking. It's getting done. I loathe every minute of it, but it's getting done. I have been in a few of those dung holes you refer to and I've seen the twelve year olds with the AKs. They're hard and brutal way before their time and a kid with the 1000yd stare... What can you say?

[max velocity]

TSHTF, BIG TIME... Absolutely worst case scenario. Your group, lets call it three families, five viable shooters,six kids (ages 9-13 ) and one walking wounded woman. Roads are pluged and or blocked making the BOVs impractical, unless they are tracked vehicles. It's night, raining sideways (Michigan clay goes from pavement hard, to greasy slick, to axle deep slime) and the Zombies are at the gate. Everyone has their three day packs and it's thirty miles to the BOL. The group is well equipped and dressed in their best woodland cammies. The decision has been made to leave on foot.

These people have studied all the manuals they could find, gone camping and played "army" in the woods.

Can this group, based on experience or training, offer any advise for a successful E&E?

So I saw where Matt in OK had referred me over here from my post on realistic fitness. Interesting scenario and I will bite too!

There are a lot of good tactical answers in the thread so rather than covering “all that” I will come back initially with my thoughts about this group and the situation they are in. I would approach it from a tactical/close protection and medical standpoint.

There are not many shooters. I would position them to cover the 360 movement of the group. There will need to be an outer protection group, at least front/rear, and at least one close protection person close in with the kids. This could be the walking wounded woman but I have no information on the extent of her wounds and how she will hold up over 30 miles.

In the described conditions those kids are not going to go far. Kids energy levels just give out, once they are run too far, and there will be much wailing and tearing of hair after too long in the driving rain and darkness. I would concentrate initially on getting away from the point of danger at the property “zombies at the gates”, breaking contact hopefully in a covert way to avoid follow up, and then finding some shelter to recuperate in. I would then break up the 30 miles into smaller parts of the elephant. There may also be scope in going static in a shelter, if you are not followed up, in order to wait out the weather.

Consider a snap ambush, if there is follow up, in order to create space from your pursuers and help the party to move away.

Wounded woman, kids and supplies: Consider the use of jog strollers, cart or similar, if you can get them along the trails, for the wounded woman if she becomes non-walking, and also for any exhausted kids. You only really have enough adults to push one of these, but it may help. I like the idea of roping the kids together. This could be turned into a game, and once there is no longer a need for silence perhaps the kids could be kept interested by singing or doing “I spy” type activities as they walk.

I realize these are not very tactical answers, but they appear to me to be important considerations.

[Greg B.]

Max, I just ordered your book.

I was too ambiguous on the "walking wounded lady". She has no vision in her left eye and only 30% in her right eye. Because of back injuries, she doesn't walk real fast. She is not wounded in the military sense, but she may as well be. This is distant suburbs, running into farmland. Some woods (hardwoods) and some boggy terrain. We'll be working fence rows inside of a mile. It's a ***** to ask intelligent questions or even give accurate descriptions, when trying to maintain a degree of security.

[max velocity]

Greg B:
"When the woman at the door screeched, "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms!" I, naturally, assumed it was a delivery....": hahahaha, love it

OK, thanks, appreciated. Let me know how you find it. I did not realize that this was based on a real situation, with a real location and personnel.

A big message you will find when you read the book is avoidance. You laid out the worst case stuation, and it is pretty awful. If you are recconoitering that exfil route (within pre-SHTF property limitations) I would look at rest points and potential shelter along the way. Caching realistic? Could you use alternative vehicles, such as ATVs, for tired personnel and supplies - can you get over the fence rows, or even cut them?
Think about carrying a decent sized tent(s) that you can put up for the kids to get out of the weather. You could use a tarp but a tent would be better, even if the adults are outside using tarps.
I have young kids (younger than the ones you mention) and they are not a realistic walking prospect. We sometimes go hiking either with the kelty backpacks or we can get a jog stroller (triple!) down some serious forest trails. Given that you will be carrying full BOB packs and the kids are a lot bigger, I would consider the use of some kind of "pulk" style trailer or jog stroller for tired kids and additional stores. Those age kids can carry limited packs also.
The lady is not walking wounded but limited mobility? She will also slow the group down, so do like you say and have her monitor the kids.
Such a composition of group cannot under any circumstances get into a tactical kinetic situation, it would be very hard to provide fire and movement while child wrangling the non-comabatants out of a kill zone/ambush. Given the ages and infirmities, I would concentrate on initially moving away, perhaps with a rear guard/snap ambush to break contact if necessary (withdraw out of contact if possible), then I would concentrate on slow covert movement, with rests hidden in deep cover, to break up that 30 miles.

[610Alpha]

yeah what Max said about caching supplies in advance....if not then you will have to carry more supplies with you. With a fit group you might have gotten 10 miles per day....with the group outlined you are more likely looking at 6 days maybe even longer depending on terrain etc. Good luck on your planning.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Matt, this is one of the most agonizing decisions I've ever made. It's one thing to teach gun safety and proper technique, but to be instructing your 12yo. grand daughter on rapid magazine change is heartbreaking. It's getting done. I loathe every minute of it, but it's getting done. I have been in a few of those dung holes you refer to and I've seen the twelve year olds with the AKs. They're hard and brutal way before their time and a kid with the 1000yd stare... What can you say?

Dont loathe it, embrace it, maybe she will never need it, maybe she will never need the fire extinguisher either but....
Get them in IPSC, IDPA, or whatever where its a normal function and not just the zombie apocolyse mindset. In mine its just a way of life as LEOs, Soldiers etc but realistically will she ever use it, dunno, maybe not. I can say that renforcing the reload helps during hunting which my daughter, now an older teen, does with us. She hunts deer, squirell and dove and has for years as well as bow hunting/fishing and the reload doesnt come automatically with most because of the adrenaline dump so it has to be enforced. Now with her shooting IPSC the stress and excitement is secondary and her focus is noticably different. We never want the 1000yd stare for our children or any children and i strive everyday to make a difference but like the old saying pray for the best prepare for the worst. Even outside of shooting she knows how to rise above the event and stay focused. I found that out recently when she had to take me to the hospitol and even told me to shudup and lay back that she had this. These lessons go above just mag changes and besides it scares the snot out of teens boys when they watch her LOL

[Greg B.]

Max, Matt, EX121 and 610Alpha,
You people are great. Yes, I did give an almost worst case scenario. If we prep for the worst and it isn't that bad, someone in the group will get a little slack.

Max, you're right. Engaging decisively (?) is out of the question, so avoidance is the route to attempt. Fortunately, I and another in the group, know the route to be travelled cold. There is a decent hide about 5mi. out and another at about 20mi. Caching some supplies near either , or both, would be doable.

Matt, I needed that. Thanks. It's so easy to get tunnel vision. Probably, like many here, I've been shot at, shot down and shot. The thought of any of my loved ones even having to see it, never mind be part of it, on their street, just grinds me.

[Greg B.]

If anyone is willing, I'd like to take this to the next step. Okay, we are part of a larger group and our destination is a rendezvous site. We have made it to the 5mi. hide, established a perimeter. Those who can are unwinding a bit. There is no sign of persuit, so far, but still a cold camp. Would you send a messenger foreward, to the rendesvous, to arrange for relief with vehicles, or send a scout back to survey what is left and useable at our departure point? A lot of that equipment is going to be sadly missed.

If I'm going to say something stupid, I'd rather do it here than when it counts.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

If anyone is willing, I'd like to take this to the next step. Okay, we are part of a larger group and our destination is a rendezvous site. We have made it to the 5mi. hide, established a perimeter. GoodThose who can are unwinding a bit. Establish who/how many now maybe 1/3 to 1/2There is no sign of persuit, so far, but still a cold camp. Would you send a messenger foreward, to the rendesvous, to arrange for relief with vehicles, having trouble understanding why you dont have your vehicles but someone else does theirs. Anyway you need an extraction so you need to have commo. Why not have radio commo instead of sticking someone out there on there own or losing a gun? If you do send someone then have a pre-established signal or way for them not to get shot up. Cant answer this for you as it is an on the spot command decision that you will make and live with. Depends on the momentum of the tribe, logistics and wounded stats i guess. or send a scout back to survey what is left and useable at our departure point? Not until you are clear with your main body in case the are taken and give you away with either tracks or verbally (yes they will because everyone has a breaking point and there is no geneva in PAW)A lot of that equipment is going to be sadly missed. If I'm going to say something stupid, I'd rather do it here than when it counts.

There is nothing in the world that is going to stop you from making bad choices or saying stupid stuff because we are human. Dont get caught up in ego and the wont either when they look at you.Being the leader now you probably already have there respect even though you probably have made bad choices in the past and probably have said something stupid too and they didnt run away so dont dwell on it just do your best and they will give you their best
my 2 1/2 grains of rice anyway

[Greg B.]

Man, I shoulda' knowed better. I do an immense amount of research and rule 1 is: Ask the right question the right way. I've got this whole scenario running in my head and, Matt, you obviously can't read minds...

1. the vehicles are purposely disabled (rotors stashed and hoods padlocked) and we had to leave in a hurry, in another direction. If we had our vehicles, we wouldn't be out here on this glorified cowpath. There is a pre-positioned 6X6 with four quad runners at the rendesvous site. If they could get the quads to us and extract the non-combatants, on the first go 'round, it would sure simplify things.
2. radios scare h#ll out of me. The zombies have excellent RDF gear. Did some time in ONI, so know about breaking points. Geneva was just another town back then.

[max velocity]

Your priority is the extraction and safety of the non-combatants. I would allocate all available "combat power" to that priority. You will know based on thre individual and the ground/situation if you can send someone forward to bring ATVs back to help extract. I would not consider sending any part of your group back to the original location at this point, because you need them for security of the non-combatants and you have to assume that your original location is lost.
Once safely at the BOL, you could consider a scavenging mission: perhaps you had supplies at your original location that may be well hidden or cached and you think may be intact? That would be a tactical recce patrol. You could use the ATVs for tactical mobility to get close to your Objective Rally Point (ORP) before going covert to the objective on foot.
If there are any supplies or vehicles usable, then you need to consider how to get them out. Is the road gridlock now dispersed and you can reconfigure vehicles and get out in those? Or were they burned by the "zombies" in frustration? Is the whole place burned or is there a group in residence? Depending what you find, the recce group could take the supplies or withdraw, or you may consider planning a raid mission to destroy any occupants and re-take control of your stuff.
All depends on the situation, but these tactical missions have to take place once you have secured the safety of your most precious asset, the kids.

[Greg B.]

Max,
Everything you say is solid. Nothing there I can even debate. Suffice it to say that I'm quite certain that there is a nice crater where the main structure was standing. That's not where the goodies are.