Covert Bug Out

[Greg B.]

TSHTF, BIG TIME... Absolutely worst case scenario. Your group, lets call it three families, five viable shooters,six kids (ages 9-13 ) and one walking wounded woman. Roads are pluged and or blocked making the BOVs impractical, unless they are tracked vehicles. It's night, raining sideways (Michigan clay goes from pavement hard, to greasy slick, to axle deep slime) and the Zombies are at the gate. Everyone has their three day packs and it's thirty miles to the BOL. The group is well equipped and dressed in their best woodland cammies. The decision has been made to leave on foot.

These people have studied all the manuals they could find, gone camping and played "army" in the woods.

Can this group, based on experience or training, offer any advise for a successful E&E?

[610Alpha]

I'll bite...pre-plan routes and hike the routes if possible. Go on some long road marches with those 3-day packs practicing this scenario.

[Rmplstlskn]

Many people I know wouldn't make it 10 miles, and within days be blistered, sore and disabled...

[BioG8r]

My situation;
I'm Dead back at the house brains devoured! My Body is dry (avoided the rain & mud) surrounded by dead .223's and Zombies.

[EX121]

I'll bite the first thing is to have realistic expectations on how fast & how much distance to cover. When I used to teach this stuff in the A.F. and then later work with seasoned aircrews during exercises they always tried to move to quickly. They comromised security for speed of reaching their goal.
Questins to ask: When does the group have to be there? Do they have the ability to 'hole-up' enroute (enough H20, food, & etc)? Is there a rally point they can get to quickly to escape the immediate threat?
What is the immediate security threat, will it be better or worse in xx hours/days? Can they break into smaller groups, thus having a smaller 'footprint' as they move? Again rally points/layovers enroute? How are their rough land navigations skills?
Sometimes is better to think like a mouse than a cat? Can I hide and evade vs attack and fight.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

You waited to long, given your sitrep, logistics, green report and being Army you would have learned that. There is no E&E for what you give it's dig deep keep moving or die more like the trail of tears than a tactical choice made manuever

[Greg B.]

EX121: Thank you. You took this in the direction I was hoping.

Matt: I understand sitrep and logistics. What is a green report? BTW, I was NAVY and my unit's job was pulling Marine and Army nuts out of the fire. Kinda like our SAR Brothers, without the S, and armed for bear.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

EX121: Thank you. You took this in the direction I was hoping.Matt: I understand sitrep and logistics. What is a green report? BTW, I was NAVY and my unit's job was pulling Marine and Army nuts out of the fire. Kinda like our SAR Brothers, without the S, and armed for bear.

Green report is the report you give daily that tells what your personal and sensitive items are and that they are 100% accounted for. These combined tell you what your entire status is and I would hate to think that i waited to bug before it got to this. If it was a sudden impact i can see it but otherwise you messed up bad.
Ok maybe this is what you are looking for, dunno. Given the logistcis and personel I would welcome the night move, consider 3 small tight groups and even having the younger ones hold a line/rope with the sideways rain and limited visibilty. I would have regular checkpoint, intervals or someway of doing checks on everyone say every 1/2 mile to mile so if you did lose them you wouldnt have to trackback to far to figure out whats up and any care could be rendered to the wounded or soon to have blisters from wet feet from the rain. There would be of the 5 shooters there would be 3 team leaders one on point and a rear guard. Engaging would be last resort of course and the wounded woman would be assigned the most mature of the kids as a direct caretaker responsible for communicating any complications. 30 miles given these details may be more than 3 days so supplies would need to be rationed properly but hydration would be forced and collection of any supplies along the way would need to be considered to include rain water along the way.

[Greg B.]

Thank you, Matt. Iknow a little about a lot and a lot about a little. I'm here to learn. I'm looking for E&E tactics under adverse conditions. Where in the column would you place the overall leader? He could lead from the front, but the immediate threat is to the rear. I had forgotten how even well broken in boots can blister when wet.

[EX121]

To add to something Matt said about having folks hold a rope, you can also have them periodically count off. Keep folks in the same place in line so they have the same #. We do this now during night SAR missions in our volunteer group, helps keep track of everyone.

[Greg B.]

EX121,
Thanks for the response. Counting off like that is a good idea for a nightime SAR mission, in stable times. It kind of pulls the "c" right out of covert though.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Thank you, Matt. Iknow a little about a lot and a lot about a little. I'm here to learn. I'm looking for E&E tactics under adverse conditions. Where in the column would you place the overall leader? He could lead from the front, but the immediate threat is to the rear. I had forgotten how even well broken in boots can blister when wet.

Ok the immediate leaders position isn't that important IMO. I could give a RA where the butterbar Plt Lt is when i served because we knew what to do and when to do it and my squad leaders felt the same way bout this ole Plt Sgt too because i made them that away. If you are relying that much on one person then you are hosed. The leader moves back and forth on the line always making adjustments, checking etc. In fact the leader will put more miles on than others and push harder to catch up so being in shape is crucial. What i laid out might not work worth nothing but its a plan and you work from that always making tweeks to get things better. Given your senario you have about 30 seconds to do something and sitting there aint it and like my DI used to say 15 of them seconds are gone why are you still here?
There many good manuels from the Army and Air Force on this subject and i'm sure the Marines/Navy has something too because they have pilots. The truth is it comes from experience though. I cursed them suckers that kept us in the bush no matter what while serving but looking back i bless them because of what it made me. Also hunting, real hunting not feeder and stand hunting 100yds from the truck is good for this stuff as well not to mention traing well beyond playing Army.

To add to something Matt said about having folks hold a rope, you can also have them periodically count off. Keep folks in the same place in line so they have the same #. We do this now during night SAR missions in our volunteer group, helps keep track of everyone.

mm respectfully EXE121 I dunno if silence is needed for a non contact bugout then it's the team leaders responsibilty to count and unless its critical then hush hush as shrill voices of children and higher pitches of women carry further in my experience. Ghosting is called for but maybe i'm too much Army, dunno

[EX121]

I usually agree that quite is better, but if they are close enough to hear a wispered voice then it's best to not move at all. But it does take the covert away. But I don't think untrained unpracticed folks will be able to move at night without making a hell of a racket anyway. But I concede that the counting off probably wouldn't be the best here. My thought was if all of the floks know that they are all still together it would lessen the stress and perhaps the need for someone to yell out where's my mom/kid etc. In the scenario given, I'm looking at trying to keep everyone moving together to maybe a point where they can hole-up and let the trouble pass by. I don't think there would be any 'good' way to do this, should have already beat feet, or hunkered down.

In my past life & before the widespred use of night vision the only folks I dealt with that were really good at moving spookly quite at night through the woods were Force Recon & Snipers.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

In my past life & before the widespred use of night vision the only folks I dealt with that were really good at moving spookly quite at night through the woods were Force Recon & Snipers.

Boy thats changed. Everyone right down to the man regardless of MOS in EVERY unit works in night even with limited night vision. That huge push started with the upcoming Desert Storm and really got pushed hard afterwards. But even before back in the mid 80s my National Guard unit where i started my military career did night blackout convoys and land nav, ambushes etc with zero night vision in the unit. I didnt use NV until i hit the regular Army. My experiences were part of my posting on the eye protection thread about running into limbs etc especially when tired. Sharpshooter and I often navigate short distances by starlight only going in to set up for hunts and coming out afterwards and i often run in the wee hours before daylight especially now during the heat.
Also on the night move and noise i was counting on the driving rain conditions he gave to cover some movement as well as the leaves and ground debris being wet and not crunching as much during the night manuever but even in storms voices can be heard. Those conditions would actually help in a night move and rain interferes with the distance the NVGs can see clearly too as well as hopefully lightening (preferablly air to air) which helps you see with eyes but can cause some interference with NVGs in case anyone bad has them or is activley hunting like the relayed zombies of the given task, conditions and standards.
Still wayyyyy less than optimal conditions in any case and rather than focus on E&E for later, good choices and actual practice should be the priority of training now IMO

[Greg B.]

Matt and EX121,
You have answered a lot of questions and raised some others. As soon as I can configure them, so as not to violate opsec, I will post them. Thanks a ton.