Hand to hand? Are you training?

[xdpatriot]

If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

This is my last post on this thread as well, not to hurt anyone's feelings:

"SHOOTER" was just a movie.

[Patriot Prepper]

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

My last post on this thread and not to disrespect anyone- There is nothing wrong with training in H2H but I think that most will agree that on this forum 70% or more are probably 40 years of age or older. H2H is not an old mans game, and to start learning what is essentially a lifestyle change at that age is very hard. I personally don't heal up like I used to and my reflexes are not as fast as they once were. If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

I am 60 years old and am just as fast and my reflexes are better than most 20 year olds. Age is not a factor if you have been training all your life - you do not lose that much speed. Age can however, prolong the healing process requiring more days between an intense workout. It can also affect endurance.

We once trained an 86 year old women. When she started classes, she could barley walk. After a few months she was kicking and we had her breaking boards. I have seen masters so old that had to be carried to the mat. When they got on the mat they were like 20 year olds. Your body is an incredible machine. If you treat it right and train it, it can do incredible things even when old.

I am not saying that an older guy is better than a younger man, only that age does not do as much damage as you might think. The loss of speed is relatively small. The biggest loss is in recovery and endurance.

I also think that an old person needs training just as much if not more than someone old. Many old people become weak and frail from a lack of exercise. Martial arts training is great at building up someone's body. Also if an old person is weak, they can be targeted by criminals. Being able to defend themselves could possibly save their lives. Also an old person can take a younger person by surprise. They never expect the old guy to react fast with power. The bad guy is taken off guard.

Keep in mind that many martial arts techniques can be employed with a bladed weapon like a knife. I can teach knife fighting techniques to someone who already knows how to fight much easier than someone who has no training or skill. The H2H principles I teach will flow smoothly into the use of a bladed weapon. A bladed weapon is a great equalizer.

At real close range, I can use a knife much easier and faster than most people could use a gun. I think it is foolish to judge martial arts according to age.

By the way Tito Ortiz is not the best example of a martial artist, there are much better MMA fighters out there. Don't much care for him as a person or a fighter. He is conditioned but lacks skill in many areas.

Martial arts is a great skill for a prepper, or any person to have. That is hard to deny. Whether it is worth the effort to learn is a personal decision. But to be critical of those who take an interest in improving their self defense ability is not real sensible.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Most of you guys are training to impair, subdue, handcuff, etc. In a real SHTF scenario, once you subdue, then what? I can gain that distance you mentioned thats whatWhat are you going to do with them? No jails, no police, now what?
I have a plan and we train on it, what are you gonna do just eliminate everyone? Seems that was discussed here not to long ago in a podcast about what to do with folks in situations that dont always call for killing

Most of the scenarios presented here could be stopped before the first punch is thrown by being aware of what is going on around you. Your not even being realistic about what really happens in the world. Not here in America nor abroad when things went bad.

99% of the other people can simply live to fight another day. Unrealistic, I work and have worked way to many things to know this isnt true
The best fighters in the world get injured and post SHTF is not the time for injuries. Agreed and avoid if you can just like shootings, avoid IF you can but pratice anyway. Shooters get hurt too, alot, look at the controversial florida shooter, got his .. handed to him with his hand already on his gun by a "kid"! Wouldnt have given up that back and gotten that head slammed if he had know some BJJ or even basic wrestling
Gain distance from the threat and either turn your cheek or eliminate

gain distance by how? running? same logic used on the being old comment, your too slow and too this n that..... guess you should just lay down huh? Yep I cant gain distance like i could it takes me 17 minutes to make my 2 miles now over the 13, and I cant do the 5 in 30minutes anymore, guess i should just quit running

Wasnt that long ago when a pirate was dispatched with a blade when the weapon failed. I've worked for years side by side with alot of tabs (i'm not nor never was one for the record, they earned it i didnt) and dont know where you are coming from. Our experiences are vastly different.
I'm well over 40 and closer to 50 so thats not gonna wash and there is truth to the healing statement but your eyes are going too there sniper. Over 40?Guess they shouldnt learn to shoot then either. Guess I shouldnt try and learn that MilDot master huh? That logic is flawed. I hope i never quit learning and am always a "rookie or noob in something.
Well rounded in all skills and dont think the jab about climbing slipped by either. Not all things can be handled with the gun, just as Tueller drill shows year after year. You talk as though you are done or just one sided with being a shooter, wouldnt have thought it coming from you
Train in everything, continue to learn, don't think it cant happen to you

[610Alpha]

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

When I hear my kids scream I don't grab a weapon I just come running. I didn't say a gun wouldn't have worked did I. We don't know where, if at all, a gun was located on the premises or not. If LEO's miss 70% of the time then so do bad guys. Most likely as soon as the father burst into the room the perp turned away from the daughter. Most likely the father would have still survived a GS and still done what needed to be done...heard too many stories of guys hopped up on PCP and other stuff that don't stop on the first or second GSW. A parent hopped up on adrenaline from their screaming child probably won't stop on the first or second GSW either.

I don't think anyone hear wants to be Tito they just want to be PREPARED.

elittle- I guess a gun wouldn't have worked? He had to use his hands to protect his daughter? And what if the other would have been armed, dead father and a raped daughter?

My last post on this thread and not to disrespect anyone- There is nothing wrong with training in H2H but I think that most will agree that on this forum 70% or more are probably 40 years of age or older. H2H is not an old mans game, and to start learning what is essentially a lifestyle change at that age is very hard. I personally don't heal up like I used to and my reflexes are not as fast as they once were. If some of you here want to be Tito Ortiz of the prepper world, so be it.

[610Alpha]

@Boltgun308 - what we are all saying is that there is a hole in your logic. If you don't get H2H training we don't care one iota. None of us are trying to get you into a Hand 2 Hand pyramid scheme or anything. :)

What happens when you run out of ammo...that firearm is going to be a club? Do you know the best way to use it without ammo? Have you trained in weapon retention? We aren't talking about in a SHTF scenario, you could be confronted at anytime, unless of course you are on a deserted island then I would suggest you look up and watch out for those falling coconuts... LOL. Just some food for thought.

[1Admin]

I would say that 99% of the SF guys that are trained in the military never use their hand-to-hand skills and it is probably closer to 100%. If you let someone get that close to you and laying hands on that someone is your last option, you are not real smart to begin with. Some guys don't even carry a knife unless it is on a leatherman or gerber tool.

If your using some form of hands-on combat to stay in shape, I'm all for it. Much better exercise than running and destroying your knees and hips. In my opinion though, if you think being a good fighter will make up for poor gun fighting skills, stupidity, or piss poor planning you are probably going to die. The days of fist fighting and everyone goes home as friends is pretty much over.

Law enforcement is a different deal. They are required to get close and handcuff or impair someone while using minimal force. Most here are not police officers and have no reason to be in someone's grill. Hand-to-hand ranks on my list somewhere near the bottom, probably below learning how to mountain climb and thats even if I lived in Florida (where there are no mountains to climb).

WWSD? ;)

Totally disagree, sorry.

I've seen, and created so much cross over from weapons training to H2H, h2h to weapons training that I can't even remember. Not saying "created" in the sense of haughty look at me crap, probably the word "realized" or "discovered" would fit better.

Let's not forget also the confidence building factor.

Why teach rappelling? How many soldiers will probably ever rappel? CONFIDENCE BUILDING.

Let's remember we aren't for the most part talking about crazy katas that have no place in a real fight that isn't choreographed.

Now for me personally, I abhor violence, would never hit someone, or kick them, knee them, choke them out, crush their trachea, break their limbs off, that's stuff's icky!

LMAO

Hell, the boy likes depriving people of oxygen more than I do....

[610Alpha]

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/texas-digest-man-kills-daughters-alleged-attacker-2397830.html?cxtype=rss_texas

@Boltgun308 - this story could have ended differently. I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter and it is my duty to protect her. Still don't think H2H is necessary?

[Patriot Prepper]

Most of you guys are training to impair, subdue, handcuff, etc. In a real SHTF scenario, once you subdue, then what? What are you going to do with them? No jails, no police, now what?

Most of the scenarios presented here could be stopped before the first punch is thrown by being aware of what is going on around you. Granted, LEO and MP's have a completely different situation. They must respond, confront, and ultimately make an arrest. 99% of the other people can simply live to fight another day. The best fighters in the world get injured and post SHTF is not the time for injuries. Gain distance from the threat and either turn your cheek or eliminate

Hey Boltgun, in various street confrontations, I have used sweeps that drop the guy on his back from 4 feet off the ground and follow up with a wrist lock. It takes the fight out of most guys. If they still have fight in them, I break the wrist or knock them out. I have also knocked out plenty of guys in street fights. No need to subdue or handcuff.

I also work as a bodyguard in Exec Protection. That is really a job that depends on being aware. But the truth is, you can never be aware of all circumstances. There were several instances where I has altercations including gunfights. Yes situational awareness is critical, but is not an absolute guarantee that you can avoid a conflict - no matter how smart you are. Or think you are.

You mention that H2H could result in injuries. True. But I would rather be injured in a H2H conflict then be shot in a gunfight.

I believe distance is important. But once again, keep in mind, the bad guys have bolt guns too. There is no such thing as a totally safe distance. I train and teach H2H, Combat pistol, shotgun, and carbine. That covers the range from close up and personal - eye ball to eye ball and just over the 200 yard range. But I also practice long range precision shooting, using bolt gun 308's - semi auto 308s - .338 LM and the 50 BMG.

I can hit a dime at 300 yards on a good day. This summer I will be shooting the one mile mark. That's a long distance. But does that mean I should not study H2H, or close up with a handgun? A shotgun? Or even an AR carbine? Of course not!!!

If someone is interested in H2H then they should be encouraged. No one here ever said that H2H replaces training with firearms. No one ever said that being proficient in H2H meant you could be stupid and survive. No one ever said that if you train in H2H that you would not try to stay at a distance to the enemy. All we are saying is that in society today, as well as when the SHTF, having H2H combat skills is a good thing.

Most of you guys are training to impair, subdue, handcuff, etc. In a real SHTF scenario, once you subdue, then what? What are you going to do with them? No jails, no police, now what?

Most of the scenarios presented here could be stopped before the first punch is thrown by being aware of what is going on around you. Granted, LEO and MP's have a completely different situation. They must respond, confront, and ultimately make an arrest. 99% of the other people can simply live to fight another day. The best fighters in the world get injured and post SHTF is not the time for injuries. Gain distance from the threat and either turn your cheek or eliminate

[xdpatriot]

I would say that 99% of the SF guys that are trained in the military never use their hand-to-hand skills and it is probably closer to 100%. If you let someone get that close to you and laying hands on that someone is your last option, you are not real smart to begin with. Some guys don't even carry a knife unless it is on a leatherman or gerber tool.

If your using some form of hands-on combat to stay in shape, I'm all for it. Much better exercise than running and destroying your knees and hips. In my opinion though, if you think being a good fighter will make up for poor gun fighting skills, stupidity, or piss poor planning you are probably going to die. The days of fist fighting and everyone goes home as friends is pretty much over.

Law enforcement is a different deal. They are required to get close and handcuff or impair someone while using minimal force. Most here are not police officers and have no reason to be in someone's grill. Hand-to-hand ranks on my list somewhere near the bottom, probably below learning how to mountain climb and thats even if I lived in Florida (where there are no mountains to climb).

When I used to fight full contact, I trained with guys that didn't ever want to travel on ground fighting. Why you ask? They would say "I'm not gonna go to the ground!". You want to guess the first thing I did when we fought? Yep. Took em to the ground and submitted them. I train with firearms. I've taken classes from professionals. But like others have said, we are in close proximity to people costantly in everyday life. In my opinion, its piss poor planning to not train our weaknesses. Plan for the best, PREPARE for the worst.

[610Alpha]

I saw a guy get attacked at a red light in Chicago, don't remember what part of chicago. There have also been recent attacks in my AO on people at stop lights and pedestrians, it doesn't matter where you live crap happens. It CAN & WILL happen any place any time...

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I would say that 99% of the SF guys that are trained in the military never use their hand-to-hand skills and it is probably closer to 100%. If you let someone get that close to you and laying hands on that someone is your last option, you are not real smart to begin with. Some guys don't even carry a knife unless it is on a leatherman or gerber tool.
If your using some form of hands-on combat to stay in shape, I'm all for it. Much better exercise than running and destroying your knees and hips. In my opinion though, if you think being a good fighter will make up for poor gun fighting skills, stupidity, or piss poor planning you are probably going to die. The days of fist fighting and everyone goes home as friends is pretty much over.
Law enforcement is a different deal. They are required to get close and handcuff or impair someone while using minimal force. Most here are not police officers and have no reason to be in someone's grill. Hand-to-hand ranks on my list somewhere near the bottom, probably below learning how to mountain climb and thats even if I lived in Florida (where there are no mountains to climb).

I disagree with many things you are saying and especially the bashing of people who let someone get that close. Things happen whether it's in walmart or during the big one, we can't live out of the UPS truck and no one keeps the 1/2 mile line from everyone, things will happen. I do agree with some of SF's missions as they dont deal at arms length with the public day in and day out like other Soldiers who do have to lay hands on folks for various reasons. The exception is when they are trainers and we have seen many failures to get hands on rather than fall back on the weapon when they were "that close" and the trainees turned on them. Mission dictates

I would say that 99% of the SF guys that are trained in the military never use their hand-to-hand skills and it is probably closer to 100%. If you let someone get that close to you and laying hands on that someone is your last option, you are not real smart to begin with. Some guys don't even carry a knife unless it is on a leatherman or gerber tool.

If your using some form of hands-on combat to stay in shape, I'm all for it. Much better exercise than running and destroying your knees and hips. In my opinion though, if you think being a good fighter will make up for poor gun fighting skills, stupidity, or piss poor planning you are probably going to die. The days of fist fighting and everyone goes home as friends is pretty much over.

Law enforcement is a different deal. They are required to get close and handcuff or impair someone while using minimal force. Most here are not police officers and have no reason to be in someone's grill. Hand-to-hand ranks on my list somewhere near the bottom, probably below learning how to mountain climb and thats even if I lived in Florida (where there are no mountains to climb).

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I sold my schools over 17 years ago when I retired and moved to Florida. I am essentially retired but still employ as a bodyguard and teach private martial arts lessons. Everything is word of mouth. Never needed a website. If I could find people to train as instructors, I might start a school. I just do not need the money and the liability is getting astronomical.
I have been contacted by various publishers to create a self-defense video - thanks to a couple of my friends. That would be a massive undertaking and I spend too much time traveling and also helping people set up their retreats and prepping plans.
I wanted to make the ECH a youtube video series, but never got around to it. In fact, I have not made a youtube video in over 6 months. There were a few people in our group that wanted me to take down my videos due to OPSEC. I refused to remove my videos but have not made any new ones. I just do not have the time.
My life is filled with things to do from morning to night, including shooting and prepping.
If I can slow down, I would like to start making more prepper and self-defense videos.
Thanks Matt for inquiring.

Ok, thanks, let us know if anything changes as several of us are interested in this