US Marines choose 1911...

[rice paddy daddy]

Even +P ammo shouldn't cause frame/slide cracking at 12K rounds with modern metallurgy. At least not like in the pictures that were posted up.

The biggest problem is the majority of the pistols did not finish the competition due to these failures, yet the order went through anyway. And I draw my own conclusions that someone was playing favorites with a 1911 style pistol and they were going to win no matter what.

How do we know that grossly overloaded (proof loads) ammo was not used to determine the failure point?
Or that the pistols were not physically crammed full of mud?
Or both?
Or neither?
This is all I'm getting at - a few photo's with no mention of the testing protocol are meaningless.

[Spock]

a properly made pistol will not self destruct in 12k rounds even if its chambered in 10mm auto which has nearly DOUBLE the chamber pressure of .45 acp and alot more muzzle energy. something is VERY fishy when a product fails to survive the test parameters and yet is still purchased with our tax dollars.

[Mjollnir]

Really no great mystery here, Colt has held the contract for m-16 & M4's for many many moons now. They more than likely offered discounted price per unit and it being someone's pet choice they made sure it won. I've personally owned three Colt's, the Mustang and Officer's model I had were not reliable even after a couple return trips to the factory(which took forever ) and the Series 70 Government model I bought used only had two Original Colt parts those being the frame and slide(though it functioned fine). I've handled numerous other Colt 1911s and have never understood the big draw to them compared to those offered by other manufacturers for less money.

Kimber was supplying their Desert Warrior pistols to the Marine's MEU for a while not sure what happened with that. I know a couple force recon guys and they both said they would rather have Glock 21s or the FNP45.

[WILL]

How do we know that grossly overloaded (proof loads) ammo was not used to determine the failure point?
Or that the pistols were not physically crammed full of mud?
Or both?
Or neither?
This is all I'm getting at - a few photo's with no mention of the testing protocol are meaningless.

I agree. From what I'm hearing, the 1911's these Colts are replacing went about 70,000 rounds per deployment between overhauls and were loved by the troops that carried them. These new Colts are actually sporting some new double recoil spring set up. I strongly suspect they were testing them using way over pressured rounds, but since I don't know for sure I can't say. I certainly wouldn’t use those test result pictures to draw any negative conclusions about the 1911’s ability as a fighting platform. The pistol’s been a champ for over 100 years and counting. Here we have a special forces unit specifically requesting 1911s to replace their 1911s. What more needs to be said.

[Spock]

Really no great mystery here, Colt has held the contract for m-16 & M4's for many many moons now. They more than likely offered discounted price per unit and it being someone's pet choice they made sure it won. I've personally owned three Colt's, the Mustang and Officer's model I had were not reliable even after a couple return trips to the factory(which took forever ) and the Series 70 Government model I bought used only had two Original Colt parts those being the frame and slide(though it functioned fine). I've handled numerous other Colt 1911s and have never understood the big draw to them compared to those offered by other manufacturers for less money.

Kimber was supplying their Desert Warrior pistols to the Marine's MEU for a while not sure what happened with that. I know a couple force recon guys and they both said they would rather have Glock 21s or the FNP45.

the cost comes out to over $1800 per unit.

[Mjollnir]

somebody's pocket is getting lined lol......

[Grand58742]

You 1911 fan boys are a riot. No sense in even attempting to argue with you over this. But I'll go ahead and retort.

First off, firing proof loads continuously will cause weapon and/or parts failures. This is not even a consideration and had the Marines done this and failure ensued, yes, this would be justified in crying foul. However, I can see no reason to do so since this not only will cause eventual pistol destruction, but serious safety risks to the shooter. So to even suggest this is grasping at things that could not and would not happen during testing protocol. M4s and M16s are high pressure tested once to determine if bolts and barrels can withstand the pressure of overloaded ammo. But only once...why should it have been any different with this pistol?

And Will, you need to check this whole "Marine Special Forces are replacing the 1911 with a 1911." It's not the recon Marines (who coincidentally use a Springfield which lost in this comp) who are replacing their pistol, it's the whole Corps. This will be a general issue item. So please, check the enthusiastic fan boy nonsense and actually be objective about this. The whole "test" was a sham. You cannot debate this. The weapons used in the testing were damaged by testings end. You cannot debate this. The USMC ignored 100 years of small arms development by limiting a competition to a narrow set of parameters to ensure what they wanted to win would win. You cannot deny this.

Now had the competition been opened up and the Colt had won against say...the Glock 21, FNP45, HK45, Sig-Sauer P220, H&K USP, S&W M&P45, shoot, even toss in a Taurus 24/7 G2 and a CZ-97 for good measure, then yes. By all means, start to puff your chest out and brag about how the Marines got the "best weapon on the market that beat all others! And I own one too!" But until that time, just remember that pistol (the M45) did nothing more than "win" against a deck stacked against all other manufacturers. And frankly, if a GAO or Congressional investigation doesn't come around from this, I'll be utterly shocked since the whole thing is a sham.

Again, I'm not anti-1911. I'm not pro anything else. But what I do want is the best weapons in the hands of our troops going into harm's way. And frankly, the Marines have not done that since they decided to play favorites and limit the competition. This cannot be debated.

[Irish-Tech]

If we are going to get the best for our guys why no a pistol that can go thru armor. meet the Five-seveN saw this bad boy on top shot. ive never shot it and can tell you if its reliable or not. but why no run it through some tests.

[Grand58742]

If we are going to get the best for our guys why no a pistol that can go thru armor. meet the Five-seveN saw this bad boy on top shot. ive never shot it and can tell you if its reliable or not. but why no run it through some tests.

Apparently the round is a relatively poor performer in ballistic tests and OIS.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Doc Roberts cites different sources and aren't just his opinions. Dr Fackler is probably the leading expert on wound ballistics.

I'll take a .45 lol

[Matt In Oklahoma]

If we are going to get the best for our guys why no a pistol that can go thru armor. meet the Five-seveN saw this bad boy on top shot. ive never shot it and can tell you if its reliable or not. but why no run it through some tests.

I wouldnt want it as my defensive weapon but sure would like one for critter hunting especially like coyotes at longer ranges

[Irish-Tech]

Well that's what i get for not researching it. So far there isn't one gun on that show i wouldn't be happy to own, but maybe there should be one. Almost sounds like the 10mm when it first came out had so much speed perps didn't even realize they were being shot.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Well that's what i get for not researching it. So far there isn't one gun on that show i wouldn't be happy to own, but maybe there should be one. Almost sounds like the 10mm when it first came out had so much speed perps didn't even realize they were being shot.

now if a feller could get his hands on some of them special purpose ap rounds they make, well that might make it more interesting for a special purpose handgun but thems not to be legally had sad face
it still a flat shooter and i imagine i could stretch them shots out to 300 or so with it, doin 215 with a 9
I only got to shoot at 50yds with the one I tried

[rice paddy daddy]

somebody's pocket is getting lined lol......

Not really. The total price covers parts, spares, factory support over the service life of the pistol.

[Mjollnir]

Not really. The total price covers parts, spares, factory support over the service life of the pistol.

I don't know brother.... I never had to pay for warranty work on the ones I sent back other than shipping. I had a Kimber Stainless II with somewhere in the neighborhood of 30k rounds through it and the only spare part I had to replace other than springs (which are inexpensive) was replacing the plunger tube when it came unstaked from the frame. New plunger tube was under $15( the restaking tool cost me $75 though) Maybe I just got extremely lucky with the various non-Colt 1911's I've owned. Hell I had a Commander sized Llama with over 10k through it before I gave it to a friend who is still shooting it 8 years later. Marines have their own armorers and tools already and I dare say smithing knowledge as well to fix them so the high price tag still doesn't jive for me especially on a pistol that fails as bad as these seem to with such a low round count to boot.

[WILL]

You 1911 fan boys are a riot. No sense in even attempting to argue with you over this. But I'll go ahead and retort.

And Will, you need to check this whole "Marine Special Forces are replacing the 1911 with a 1911." It's not the recon Marines (who coincidentally use a Springfield which lost in this comp) who are replacing their pistol, it's the whole Corps. This will be a general issue item. So please, check the enthusiastic fan boy nonsense and actually be objective about this. The whole "test" was a sham. You cannot debate this. The weapons used in the testing were damaged by testings end. You cannot debate this. The USMC ignored 100 years of small arms development by limiting a competition to a narrow set of parameters to ensure what they wanted to win would win. You cannot deny this.

Now had the competition been opened up and the Colt had won against say...the Glock 21, FNP45, HK45, Sig-Sauer P220, H&K USP, S&W M&P45, shoot, even toss in a Taurus 24/7 G2 and a CZ-97 for good measure, then yes. By all means, start to puff your chest out and brag about how the Marines got the "best weapon on the market that beat all others! And I own one too!" But until that time, just remember that pistol (the M45) did nothing more than "win" against a deck stacked against all other manufacturers. And frankly, if a GAO or Congressional investigation doesn't come around from this, I'll be utterly shocked since the whole thing is a sham.

Again, I'm not anti-1911. I'm not pro anything else. But what I do want is the best weapons in the hands of our troops going into harm's way. And frankly, the Marines have not done that since they decided to play favorites and limit the competition. This cannot be debated.

I feel like I know what I'm talking about. Do you know something I don't? You're coming across a bit cocky/ arrogant in your reply.

http://www.defensereview.com/colt-defense-secures-us-marine-corps-usmc-contract-for-up-to-12000-m45-close-quarter-battle-pistol-m45-cqbp-single-stack-1911-pistols-primarily-for-marine-force-recon-and-marsoc-elements/