suggested quantity..

[jimmydiablo]

7.62x.39..... 7.62x.54...... .22lr...... 12gauge..... 40 cal......???

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Much as you can quick as you can, elections are on the horizon again. 12ga birdshot should be coming up on sale soon as Dove season kicks off in September so small game taking stuff will be a bit cheaper then if you watch closely.

[WiseOwl]

Matt knows what my answer is........ (shhhhhhhhh) :)

[jimmydiablo]

I've been spending as much as possible. Even considering selling a couple guns for more ammo.

[boltgun308]

I shoot an AR so 1k rds 223
500 rds 12 gauge bird
100 rds 12 gauge buck
500 rds 45
4 bricks 22LR just because it is cheap

If you need more than that for your personal use, you are in a war zone. I know guys that have been on several deployments and not used even this much 223 for all trips combined. Now if you are looking at trading or selling, you will obviously need more.

[boltgun308]

I don't think that you will see the run on ammo and guns to the extent we did several years ago. All of the local and internet suppliers still have plenty of ammo and our local Wal-Mart has AR's in stock and in quantity. I have noticed that some AR parts are somewhat scarce but when lower receivers can be had for $50 and in quantity, a lot of people will be building them.

I believe that a lot of people (at least around here) are stocking up for at least a week or two in some form or fashion, mostly bottled water, food, and fuels. Alabama had a tax free weekend that ends today for emergency supplies. Firearms were not on the list, but generators, tarps, radios, first aid supplies, etc. qualified for the tax exemption.

[brokedownbiker]

I'm calculating by the rifle rather than by the caliber. My goal is 1000 rds. per rifle, 500 rds. per handgun, 5000 rds. of .22LR, and I'm figuring on 500 rds. of 12 ga. mixed between bird, buck, and slugs.

[jimmydiablo]

Thanks for replys guys

[1Admin]

Dry firing is great and you can do a lot with it. Sub caliber work is o.k. also.

Realistically you should be training and shooting at least a couple thousand rounds through your main rifle every year. Didn't say a boltgun. I meant like an AK or (God forbid LOL) an AR.

If you can't find a reason to train that much, just watch the news for a couple days. If you can't find something you need work on, your ego is too flipping big. If you can't find the money for the ammo, cancel your cable..... :)

[boltgun308]

Shoot an AK over 300 yards and I can see why you need 2k rounds of ammo a year to pactice.

I see this all the time on the net. There are front line military units that don't shoot 2k rounds of training ammo a year per man. Remember training quality over quantity and the same applies to your ammo. The 7.62x39 should be an accurate round and I really like it for CQB over the 223 military FMJ stuff but the guns and surplus ammo are garbage as far as accuracy is concerned. I don't know how the AR does in 7.62x39 with good loads. No reason it should not be just as accurate as the 223 versions.

[1Admin]

2K is a lot?

OK, I guess we could the little nintendo gun deal like a lot of guard units used to do. That would save some ammo right? Yep, and it reflected in the 20 year veteran that thought a 4" group at 100 yards with a Savage 308 bolt gun and springfield scope was good. Or how about the 11B supposed Ranger that couldn't hit a 1/2 IPSC steel at 50 yards to save his soul? I could tell you some stories my friend...

Their is a whole wide world of shooting and training outside of the relatively narrow realm of what is given in the military. You should experience it.

And yes I did catch the personal SNIPE you made at me and yes it did piss me off. This is not the first time you've pissed people off here, suffice to say chill out or it will be your last ;)

[jimmydiablo]

When I shoot by myself its all practice. When in a group I tend to watch more than shoot to make sure all safety being adhered to. Especially when with children.

[boltgun308]

I know exactly what is outside the realm of the military and LE, but that was not the question. A lot of people come to this site that are apprehensive of what may or may not be coming and some here do nothing to give them real world advice. If Jimmy can afford to shoot 2k rds of practice ammo for his main rifle only, that is great. I imagine since he is asking that he does not have a large budget for ammo. I personally would rather him have 1k of ammo and some E&E skills and a good dose of common sense so that he does not need 2k rds worth of practice ammo a year. But if Jimmy is a gun guy and loves to shoot, great...nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, if Jimmy or anyone else wants to be at the level of Tier 1 guys then I don't care how much he practices because it is more than how good he is with a gun. Shooting is 10% or less of the equation.

You make my point for me with the 11B. Think of how much training he has and by your own words could not shoot well, but would you write him off as not being a threat? He may not be able to hit a piece of steel at 50 yards, but can he hit a human at 500 meters while being hot, hungry, thirsty, bone tired, and while taking enemy fire? My money is on the 11Bravo. They don't hand out Ranger tabs to a candyass. I also bet he doesn't shoot 2k rds a year in training either, but if he does then that shows that it is how you train over how much you train.

And really, a Springfield scope? He was lucky to hit the target at all much less a 4" group AND on top of a Savage? That guy was a true marksman with a 4" group. Imagine a Springer on top of an AK. Now that would be a formidable long range combination. BTW, don't get pissed, I am laughing here.

And lastly, this is your house, you want me gone just say the word. But if you allow me to stay, I may or may not agree with everyone here, and as you know, I don't hide my opinions very well. I have been respectful and will continue to do so in the future but if feelings have already been hurt then maybe I do need to go. I believe that I can disagree with anyone and still be friends but that may not be the case here. Your call.

[1Admin]

Yeah. Actually this same 11B also couldn't spot targets on a simple walk through jungle lane. Folks that have attended some of the FL and GA campouts know the type of lane I'm referring to. So while you think he could "hit a human 500 meters away" he couldn't SEE the damn things 20 yards away. Definitely NOT another candidate for more training huh??? He should probably get the Nintendo gun from the guard armory right? God forbid he spend money on training or ammo to improve himself, THAT would be stupid right??

I think your ASSuming too much.

#1. That people that shoot a lot don't hit much. That's just flipping stupid.
#2. That military training is the end all be all and that someone would never benefit from anything outside of that. Yet ironic that some of the better groups use a lot of civilian contractors to help them improve their shooting skills.
#3. That skill at arms is a learned once and always retained forever type of deal. I heartily disagree with that. Course this is from the same guy that said no one should bother learning hand to hand skills, "don't get pissed, I am laughing here."
#4. That shooting a lot of rounds in practice means an 8 hour mag dump.

I made it really clear when I said in the initial post that I was not referring to bolt gun work. Most I've ever shot at a Precision rifle type class was about 400 rounds in two days. I'm sure that's too much in your book also.

You know you called someone on the forum a "ninja" but I got the distinct feeling your the one that assumes you don't need any more training/experience. That's unfortunate. Just like in that -what you said was worthless right- hand to hand training, every time you get too prideful someone ends up coming along that's more skilled, stronger, faster that you are and helps bring you back to reality- sometimes via a broken limb, a quick nap or an elbow to the head. Course that assumes your willing to put your fragile ego in a place where it can be bruised. Many of us aren't willing to do that.

So here's an idea for you, since really most of what you've ever posted here leads me to believe your one of these "civilians don't need guns cause they have badarses like me to defend them" type mentalities. Why don't you lay out a simple training plan for a novice shooter (we all aren't Smooth Operators like you, but we can hope) including round counts to work up to a basic level, say what you would get in a couple of basic pistol classes. OK, here's where you'll probably say we shouldn't bother with pistol (kinda like you said with H2H) because all the enemies will be "500 meters" away and of course they will be wearing shirts clearly designating themselves as your enemy so you'll KNOW for sure.

So, share your info. You say shooting 2K rounds a year is too much, EXPLAIN WHY. Let's hear some SKILL BUILDING drills- cause no one can afford nor does mag dumps for fun since about 1988. Lay out how many ROUNDS should be used in each skill building exercise. Explain how often these drills should be done and bring a novice shooter up a reasonable level of proficiency. I want to know how many rounds you think that will take.

Maybe you can MAKE YOUR CASE instead of making an arse of yourself? That would be a good way to stay around.

And really, a Springfield scope? He was lucky to hit the target at all much
less a 4" group AND on top of a Savage? That guy was a true marksman with a 4"
group. Imagine a Springer on top of an AK. Now that would be a formidable long
range combination. BTW, don't get pissed, I am laughing here.

Ironic that this almost exact system and ammo (Federal Gold match 168g. SBTHP) was used to make consistent groups less than an MOA at over 500 yards. Kept one of the targets and most of the staff here have seen it. Hell one group was 1/2 moa but honestly that was probably a fluke. That was just lowly ole me, idiotic ba$tard that wastes a lot of money on classes and does all those 8 hour mag dumps and such.

The one that thought a 4" group at 100 yards was good was a 20 year veteran, in a unit that definitely did not shoot that much. His trigger pull sucked, his follow through was non existent, his position was wrought with excess tension. He listened to a few tips, applied them and within a few minutes dropped the size of the group by half.

Best mil shooter I've seen was a KS national guard "major" that was at a class in Texas. This guy spent his own dollars to attend numerous CIVILIAN shooting classes and said his skills had drastically increased since.

And lastly, this is your house, you want me gone just say the word. But if
you allow me to stay, I may or may not agree with everyone here, and as you
know, I don't hide my opinions very well. I have been respectful and will
continue to do so in the future but if feelings have already been hurt then
maybe I do need to go. I believe that I can disagree with anyone and still be
friends but that may not be the case here. Your call.

You haven't been respectful to more than a few people. Just saying stupid crap like "this is who I am" after being an arse doesn't cut it.

You've been given some slack previously because you said your were mil. you've used that up now. Just so we both understand each other. A friendly debate is o.k. but when your not making your case, your just being argumentative. Make your case.

[1Admin]

So let's say a person goes to PRACTICE six times a year. Not a lot really, once every 2 months.

Basing on the 2,000 rounds divided by 6 times means 330'ish rounds per practice season. Still seems like a lot right? That's 11 mags.

So, since we aren't NINJAS like some think they are, we probably will have to reinforce our skill sets we already have.
That usually means some warm up drills.

Let's say some basic stuff 30 yards out, bring your rifle up from various carry positions, engage the target 2-3 times, scan for more targets, do any AA stuff you've trained in. There is a couple mags used up.

Keeping it simple, from there let's move on first to some slow, controlled movement- forward, backwards, lateral. Easy basic stuff, move inside the big box type drills.
There is a couple mags more used up.

Alright, now reload your empties with 5 to 10 rounds each do the same drill adding reloading during controlled movement.
There is a mag or two used up.

Let's not forget malfunction drills, even us dumb commie rifle carrying guys practice these. No dummy rounds? sometimes empty shells work. Have a training partner load your mags. Work the same warmup and controlled movement drills with the ganked up magazines.
There is at least a mag used up.

Time for pistol transitions. Comb your hair, use the sling, go to cradle, work the different transitions based on the situation- is your rifle FUBAR or is it just that it's potentially quicker at short range to draw pistol? Do you have to move a wounded person? All these factors can determine the way you transition.
There is a mag used up. AND some pistol ammo- GASP!!!

Basic position shooting, changing positions and basic use of cover. Work going from standing to kneeling, to modfied prone, to prone, supine, get up with the rifle in hand. Basic use of cover, use of space, work some drop outs, slice corners.
There is about 3-4 mags used up.

Now for slow, accurate fire, BRM work. Keep it simple let's start at 100 yards. Slow fire. Everyone hitting well? OK let's go to 200.
There is 1-2 mags used up.

Push the pace slightly, let's go back to 100 yards. 30 seconds to fire 30 rounds on TWO targets, alternating back and forth between each target. Keep it simple at first and put targets side by side. You can add some "flavor" to this drill by starting it with a 100 yard run and starting the clock as soon as the shooter reaches the position.
There is 1-2 mags used up cause yes you will want to do this twice. Never met anyone who only wanted to do it once.

ON A LOW NOTE- there is 11 mags used up (330 rounds), we haven't even begun to discuss anything advanced yet. Nor have we alloted extra ammo for those that won't pickup these skills 100% the first go around and that will want to run some of the drills again. If we really focus on DEVELOPING EFFICIENCY in some aspects like mag changes we will spend a lot of time on those as well.

Now let's discuss RETENTION, not of weapons but of skills.

I know a couple, a guy and a gal that I've trained before. Their skills advanced very rapidly when they would go out and shoot competitions fairly regularly between when I worked with them. I could move their pace along very quickly because they were RETAINING the skills well. Others I've trained NEVER touched their weapons between sessions and it was extremely obvious. Some 5 years later had never mastered basic skill sets. Why? Because they never practice. They were taught and would do things correctly during training sessions but they would never PRACTICE and so the once or twice a year I would see them, it was like all the basic skill sets were new to them.

No my friend, your not going to convince me that 2,000 rounds a year is too much to shoot. I've seen the results and the progress of people that PRACTICE that much and I've seen the piss poor results and lack of progress from those that neglected the practice.