Summer of Survival FREE webinars

[1Admin]

A few more tonight. Hopefully more time tomorrow night to work on some of the other questions-

What would be the best way to handle a hostile trading situation? You know, if the guy your trading with didn\'t seem like it at first, but becomes desperate.

So if I'm understanding you correct you mean YOU are the party that becomes or is "desperate" for the item? If so then here's some things to chew on-

Can you get the necessary item elsewhere? If it's an absolutely have to have item (let's say insulin for a child or something) then- How much are you willing to give up for it? Remember to listen for, pay attention to clues and cues to the other parties TRUE NEEDS. They might be rejecting your offer simply because they have no need for another "survival widget" or whatever. Maybe there is other things you can trade, including a skill set you may have. Once you even imply use of force or use of violence you have lost some power. I would NOT AT ALL suggest using violence to get what you needed, but if for whatever reason you had to resort to that, by all means DO NOT show your hand ahead of time with a "threat" of violence. It's the surprise aspect of something that often gets the most reaction. When you tell someone something you will do, you are giving up a lot of the power of the action. And of course if you do not fully go through with it, you look even more power less and impotent. It's like the business cliche about "taking someone to court." People like to throw that around but few ever actually do it. Some companies that don't pay their bills will even tell you "well take me to court then!" If you have to take an action, it's always better that it's a surprise action versus something they can ponder for a while.

Mr. Henry: This ret. military officer has become an EMT-Advanced after three years of study and work. Scenario: Someone comes to me with an injury, perhaps an injury to their child, and the husband tells me he has nothing to barter. Ethically and morally I don\'t want to say \'no\' and of course I can anticipate a violent reaction if I do. What would you do if you were this medic? Great show by the way. Mike

Mike- great question. And a great chance to truly "win over" someone. Yes if you refuse you could be "forced" to. Personally I would begin with an honest talk with the parents- "I am NOT a doctor, I have little equipment and no facilities. I WANT to help your child and I WILL help your child any way I can, but you need to understand that there is only so much I CAN do. If the child dies while treating them at least you warned the parents up front. They could be very thankful to you, or they could be blaming you for the child's death. By all means I would personally help them, but security is what security is and in my book, that has to come first i.e, "These three men have to go with me or I can't help you." Try to get them involved in the treatment where possible, even if it's "busy work" tasks or something similar- "Keep this IV bag elevated." Giving people a "job" even if it's not that important, gets them involved and they begin to get an understanding of the situation, the problem and the solutions. Having them just sit outside and then finding out later the child is dead would not be the best solution. Obviously hysterical parents aside here.

[Lowdown3]

What is the best advice in preparing to negotiate for a future world of irrational hardballers. Recommended book to help develop these skills?

Make them justify their position. This can be done nicely i.e, the "educate me on this" approach or it can be done more brashly depending on the person. Knowing the CULTURE helps also. Folks from certain areas of the country like NY and NJ tend to come off more combative at times to those of us from the South. Often times these types require a small "push" back with the same attitude to get them to chill a bit. Usually they become easier to work with after that. It's like you start speaking their language and they understand it.

Indians (country not tribes) are the same way- always seem to start with crazy low ball offers. In the past I've had hard times with these folks cause I tend to come with my best price right off the bat in the attempt to show them respect and close the deal fast. Even when they recognize the price as good, they still will come with crazy low ball offers. Now I go in slightly higher than my best price and reluctantly let them negotiate me down from there. In essence it's sometimes good to factor some "wiggle room" in up front IF you can. When you have to give a concession, take your time in doing so and never do it without some sort of compliant.

yada yada yada; bada bing, bada bang..etc,. Hard to receive the message with the background noise and the nervous comments.

What "background noise?" Yes you are correct, I should have talked like an emotionless analytical freak to attempt to sound authoritative like everyone else does. Sorry that's how I talk, nothing "nervous" about it. If you read that into my speech it was probably my frustration in recording it for the third time after some technical problems. Course a person like this always appreciates other people's work they get the benefit of FOR FREE don't they? I'll send you a refund LOL. There is always some critic and that doesn't really bother me. I can't always reach the geeky analytical types that have no sense of humor. These types cannot understand humor and emotion.

Do you think women are generally at more risk of danger when bartering? How about women being offered not-so-great deals compared to other men?

See my other answer re: the woman question. On the second part- being known as being schrewd will help that. Remember "schrewd not rude." When offered a deal you feel is "not so great" to ask more questions like "Interesting. I never thought that would be worth that much. How are you valuing that item or where did you come with the price? Can you help me understand this." Using this approach (the "please educate me" approach) prompts the seller to have to justify his position/price/trade value, etc. Often times this opens up other avenues to discuss the price/value of the item.

Suggestion…I recommend the show \"Down East Dickering\" on the History Channel. They use all these principals and sometimes have 4 deals going to ultimately get what they want and satisfy the needs of others to get what they need.

Thanks for the suggestion. We haven't had regular TV service in 15 years. But I do buy DVDs of the seasons of Storage Wars and enjoy how some of this plays out there. Was spending a lot of time lately sitting around hospitals and had a chance to see some of the various Pawn store reality TV shows. Some are just plain stupid like the one set in Detriot. Others like the guys in Vegas were a lot better to pick up some of these things.

Great idea, thanks.

[protus]

Good advice.
I did this the other day....had an item (s) a Guy wanted...he came out with "here's x cash " waving it around.I just played the "I dunno " card while fiddling with the items. I came back while holding a book that was key to making the items he wanted more "profitable " to him ...
"20$ book by the best xyz on earth about these items...can you come up on your offer..."
In the end he got the items. Things I haven't used in years but were worth more than he paid. But I got him to come up 50$ more. Important thing was we both walked away happy.

I didn't catch the talk due to family issues...but
What's your thoughts on garage sales ..swamp meets as test beds to better understand the "haggling " aspect especially with people of different areas /backgrounds?

[Lowdown3]

What's your thoughts on garage sales ..swamp meets as test beds to better understand the "haggling " aspect especially with people of different areas /backgrounds?

By all means. Any an all opportunities to negotiate, trade, etc. will be learning opportunities.

[Lowdown3]

I wasn't able to make it but I did have a question based on watching the pawn shop on history or discovery channel last year.

So say a guy is selling X and you offer him Y in cash but that isn't quite what he is wanting and he asks if you will throw in Z item on top of cash....how do you make sure you aren't screwing yourself out of value on Z?

Maybe Z + Y is too much value for X do you tell them if they want Z then you will only give them a lesser amount of Y?

How does a person keep all this straight in their mind when they don't have their records to look at to see what they paid for Z originally nor to look it up on the internet and see what the current price is for it?

How do you assign value to an item in a SHTF situation?

Many items now might not be worth much, but in a SHTF situation they are worth 10x their original value.

I thought of this last night as I was going to sleep.

Good question.

Value pre collapse may be a point to argue and value post collapse may also be a point to argue.

The fishing hooks don't cost anything now- and someone might argue post collapse that "those are just cheap fishing hooks, they were a dime a dozen!"

Here again, showing the need for the item and the benefit the item can give will be important.

"You know, I tried to make a fish hook one time out of bone, like they show in some Boy Scout books. That darn thing didn't catch any fish and I lost a lot of bait. The nice thing about hooks like these is you could get jugs with them or put five or six of these on drops hanging from a 50' piece of cord stretching across the creek. Then go about your other work and come back later to collect your fish. Good luck doing that with a piece of bone."

You just demonstrated the true value of the item to the person. Sometimes, actually often times, people have only a limited number of ideas of what an item can be used for. In this case, most people would probably think sport fishing- standing on the bank all afternoon with rod and reel. Post collapse, there will be more to do than that. Explaining how to set up jugs or do a trout line shows him he can catch fish and have them waiting for him while he's guarding his stuff, working in his garden, cutting firewood, on patrol, etc.

As to the "how do you assign value to an item in a SHTF situation"- kinda like in the example above. Value is going to be different from one person to another. Your going to have to be prepared to demonstrate the value of something through alternate uses and benefits of the product, through scarcity, etc. Like the above example- paint the picture in the other party's mind of a fish fry- the BENEFITS of the product/trade with you.

Hopefully I explained that well. :)

[justanothergunnut]

Like LD3 I have to negotiate with customers frequently and I can tell you that it is absolutely a skill.. For me one of the things that I needed to overcome and still must be mindful of while negotiating is my own ego. It's a dance, a artful back and forth. Not a boxing match. Don't take the persons offers and body language as a personal insult and remember as LD3 stated the other guy has to feel like he has walked away with a victory. Beating them into submission may get you the sale but the other party will feel bitter about the transaction and that's not a long term win...

[jimmycthemd]

Another thought on the value of something. If the item is something you can make or get more of, then the value to you is a little less. The value to the other person may be the same, but it gives you a little more wiggle room. Another thing to think of is, if possible, start with smaller trades. Build up a repport with the other person and also a history of dealing fairly. That way, if it comes down to a more difficult trade, you have a history with the person and they with you.

[610Alpha]

Great answer LD3 to my question!!

[Lowdown3]

Working on a few more as I have time-

How would you suggest approaching a bartering situation where one or both offers are a service/skillset of some type? Would anything change, or should you simply treat it as simply another \'item\' to trade?

The main question in my mind would be- can both people perform their part of the trade now? I.e, is it based on some faith that the other person will- at some point in the future, even 10 minutes later- perform their end. While this sounds ultra paranoid and untrusting, a whole bunch of variables could come up between one party doing their part and the other party doing their part. I could tell you horror stories...

All in all though, not a bad idea. A way to be able to enforce the trade would be helpful. Which brings up another point. Whether it's now or in the PAW, you need to have some way to enforce a contract. Yes, a handshake over a simple trade IS a contract to those with honor. In my book, the handshake seals the deal and (now) if their is a written contract it's just a formality. However in the "real world" of shysters, con men and dirtbags, you always have to have a written contract for installment sales and similar.
In the PAW their will be no recourse in court. If you take matters into your own hand, you could bring retribution from friends and family members of the party that screwed you. And no amount of "he screwed me in that deal!" is going to stop that.
Maybe at a later date that person just disappears. Of course you are one of the first ones showing up to help with the search and showing the most concern. Yes, not as glamorous as putting heads on pikes, etc. like they do in fiction stories, but more realistic.

[justanothergunnut]

also if you give too much,, those are the deals that come back to haunt you. I don't know why but it is fact. Whenever you bend over backwards to help someone those are usually the deals that come unwound. APPEAR to give in, create the illusion that they are scoring dickering points but always show apprehension when getting anywhere near your bottom line. " No way I can trade a full box of tylenol cold, 10 pepto tabs AND the leather work gloves for 2 stew pot hens and a broken post hole digger, Im into the tylenol deep as it is" the idea is to identify what item they most want or you know is most in demand then create the idea that YOU had to trade heavy to get it. Even if you have a gallon zip lock bag full of tylenol cold never let them know that. Shortages of items will be real enough as it is if they didn't need it they wouldn't be trying to trade you for it.. Be fair and honest but negotiate the best deal for you. That may not always be what you are getting at this trade either. Imagine if you trade a father some antibiotics to save his child and you ask a modest and very fair item in trade.. Sure you could have gotten more, he would have traded anything to save his child but now you may have gotten his loyalty. Just make sure he knows you wan't something else in the future, maybe labor help when it comes time to cut fire wood. Otherwise news of your massive generosity will spread and now your a target. If he never comes through for you then you now know that he is a untrustworthy man lacking honor. You win both ways , you saved his child and you got good intel on a neighbor who may be a problem in the future.

[Lowdown3]

also if you give too much,, those are the deals that come back to haunt you.

Yes. Also the goodwill involved in one trade might not be the same as with another person in another trade. Or even the same person at a later time wherein the person "used up" all the goodwill in the relationship.

On another planet in a distant star system LOL with my other business often the sales are in installment payments. Got a referral from a long time customer that paid well. They were supposedly relations. 2nd party wanted the same screaming deal the original customer had. Well what he hadn't considered was that the original customer had been a customer for almost 8 years, had paid on time all that time, etc. "You give me same deal you gave him" he tells me. Finally I say "your brother started off paying this same amount. It was only after several years of him paying timely that I was able to cut his price down. In a few years when you've been with me a while and have been paying on time, I'll do the same for you. "

The 2nd party never paid on time and never completed the time on the first contract.

Had I just caved and gave him the same deal I gave his brother- it would have kicked my butt.

In another business a guy bought an item from us, got a great deal, acknowledged it. Was rude on the phone. Later bought an old rare, used item that was hard to find. Worked perfectly but had minor cosmetic flaws that he was made aware of before purchasing. Called after the fact and complained about the cosmetic flaws in the old, rare item. I went to my notes and gave him the date and time I went over all of that with him. He kept being rude. I gave him a good bit of items for Free to sweeten the already done and completed deal and some money back. He never acknowledged what I did with that, just kept being a rude jerk.

Some years later, he emails me for a price on a high dollar item. I recognized the name. I replied "are you in such and such state." He replies "Yes why?" I let it go, realizing it was the guy that was so rude previously. He emails me a couple more times "can you give me a quote or not?!!!" I replied "no sorry."

Could have made some money on that guy. And a lot of people would have said "rake him over the coals." My point was I simply didn't want to deal with him again.

Point being, people can and do easily destroy good will. When you factor in people's pride, it's hard for a lot of people to come back from it.

[Lowdown3]

A few more, I was overwhelmed by the number of questions and comments sent via SOS and also emailed to me personally. I am taking the time to answer each one here but it is taking some time.

Some electrical items like night vision do not take rechargeable batteries. What batteries and equipment do you recommend given that?

Never had a problem running rechargeables, 10 year old batteries from storage or even cheapie batteries in my NV. If it's a concern for you then definitely a high quality battery like the Energizers with the 10 year dates and store them properly.

What do you think of the portrayal of \"Blackjack\" the barter town in the CBS TV Series Jericho? Realistic?

I'd have to go back and re-watch that one. Seems like it was a pretty well set up place, complete with lots of security, etc. Again, not what 1 or 2 Walter Mitty type survivalists are going to be able to pull off.

We always have to look at the risk/reward continuum when considering ANY venture, whether now or in the PAW. What would be the "rewards" for such an endeavor and what would be the "risks?" Would the risks highly outweigh the rewards.
It's like the old business joke about a manufacturer saying "we are losing $1. on each widget but we will make it up in quantity." So much people approach business so lightly and think nothing of risking their nest egg, a side mortgage on their house, etc. to create operating capital for a new business of which they have no idea about. Hey, been there myself on the new business, but just never risked my family's future for it.

Please please please stop mocking people from the South. I\'m a Northerner, but I love Southerners - they are not stupid because they talk slowly or with an accent. As a matter of fact, they are very very shrewd and intelligent, even those who are undereducated. Thank you.

LOL. I guess Mr. Astute missed MY SOUTHERN ACCENT? Sorry next time I try to be funny on a FREE seminar I'll do it in Russian, or maybe use a New York accent and say "you'se guys" a lot. Sigh..

Sometimes I feel like it is impossible to prepare for so many likely scenarios. It can be overwhelming- is it better to focus on just a few things rather than be all over the place? what do you recommend? Thanks

Good question.
Here it comes back to sitting down and beginning to think through various scenarios, what life might be like during them, what daily needs will be, etc. In ALL scenarios you will still need to eat food, drink clean water and defend yourself. In ALL scenarios there is the possibility of being without normal medical services, so there is where good health comes in, learning medical skills and stocking necessary supplies. A few scenarios such as nuclear, biological or chemical attack will have specific gear requirements. However good general planning like getting away from the large population areas now, will work out nicely during all scenarios. It's easy to feel overwhelmed when your new but focus on the basics like food, water and defense, hygiene and sanitation, shelter, etc. first. So many of these will cross over into all or most possible scenarios.
Most importantly, relax, breathe and use your time wisely. The world is not going to end tomorrow. There IS time, the question is what will you DO with the time?

[Lowdown3]

Although most will wants needs, comforts like chocolate and makeup can be in high demand, right?

Probably depends on the severity of the situation. Also the "pedigree" of the these products will be very important. Most women don't "share" makeup with other women for sake of skin problems now. Neither makeup nor chocolate store all that great over the long term. Makeup is subject to style change over time also. Remember the 80's style bright red cheeks look?
These items may be in demand but definitely won't be needs. Still though, bringing home the wife some chocolate and makeup could definitely lift their spirits in the PAW.

How can you split like a silver dollar or gold coin? I consider gold and silver as the only true currancy.

I supposed you could saw it in half if you could bear the task of it. I think you'd find it a tad bit harder than described in fiction stories. There is also those Combi Bars that are pre-segmented bars of silver and gold wherein they can be broken into smaller units. There is also 1/10 ounce silver coins like the repros of Mercury dimes.

Where would be the best location to perform bartering? At your bug out location? A few miles away? How would you suggest we establish a set time and day to let others know bartering will be available on a regular schedule?

The "best location" to perform barter would be the safest location away from your retreat at the corners of Great Security St. and OPSEC blvd. No serious, a good safe location wherein things can be kept on the downlow. Might be 14 miles out of town in a hollow, might be inside a vacant building that a friend or two posing as "homeless" have been living in. Sometimes as in patrolling or similar activities, speed can be used to offset some of these factors also.
I would definitely avoid bartering at the front gate of your retreat.

Wouldn\'t it be wise to avoid face to negotiations with new people, meaning you do it at a distance, by intercom or radio?

Well, it's a possibility. Perhaps a dead drop area and the ability to watch and cover from a distance. I've kinda covered this previously in talks and blog entries about biological quarantine. The same methods would apply only adapted to the situation. IF you felt the need to do it this way, a high powered scope with which to observe the person and the item, even then your taking a risk of the item being junk, etc.
I think the better route would be using a middle man. A courier maybe.

what do you think about bartering skills and teaching skills?

Definitely a possibility but a lot of things to iron out. "I'll teach you how to fish" is a pretty broad subject. Never understestimate that someone else's idea of a nebulous subject will probably be DRASTICALLY different from yours. Or even something that you made crystal clear or should have been crystal clear from a little bit of basic observation skills.

Even when you have clearly set out time constraints to something like this, their is always that type that wants a little more of your time, expects that since he paid he "owns" you, etc. I've experienced this before in training as most have. When money (or something of value) changes hand, especially for something intangible- i.e, training, it's hard for some folks to really get a "value" on what they are getting. Also since they don't immediately have something in their hands (tactile senses) it's easy for the types that haven't done that sort of thing before to not fully value what they are getting. Set realistic time constraints and budget a SMALL overage of time so as to "give a little more" to the deal. But be wary of the types who will attempt to keep you way longer than what was originally agreed. At best, that's rude as hell, at worst that's a breech of the agreement you made.

The above was relating to the "teaching skills" part of the question. As to the bartering skills, see my other answer. I would lean more towards bartering your skills towards something tangible that you can walk away with as soon as the work is done. This way you have more control over the trade completing, versus a "I'll shoe your horse now and you come over and fix my generator tomorrow" type of deal. He could be dead tomorrow, then who will fulfill his end of the trade.

Anyone who has done subcontractor type work knows that there is a certain type that does not value the work. Just like the rude person in the restaurant that holds their cup up and points to it for the waitress or asks a million things and then leaves just a buck or two as a tip- people that do that have usually never worked that same job. Without something to relate to, they do not know how to put a DECENT value on the work. This often times happens with people with higher education. They see a carpenter building a custom set of stairs- in their mind they see what might be a scruffy guy doing menial work. They have NO IDEA how complex a set of stairs is to lay out and build correctly. Yet their (the higher pay type) view of it is that the carpenter makes less money therefore the work must be easier.

Not always the case.

[Lowdown3]

Joel Skousen tonight. He's old skewl and one of the true thinkers in the movement IMO.

Buy his books and definitely catch tonights SOS webinar if you can.