Are we kidding ourselves?

[Bill Foster]

I believe that at first, our troops would follow orders but eventually, a lot of them would wake up. The first wave, we would loose many of our countrymen. After a while, the only way to keep the grunt in line would be through his stomach, or fear of punishment. Neither make an excellent soldier. History has shown that battlefield re-supply of food has happened. During the civil war, one of my ancestors was killed by enemy soldiers (damn Yankee!) when he refused hand over his food stores. It happened in WWII Europe, the Soviet Union,etc. In later times, China proved that you must use outsiders to quell the population. In the Tienanmen Square protests of 1989, the local soldiers would not fire on the student protesters. Outsider special forces were brought in to deal with the problem. We know how that ended. Of course there will not be enough US special forces types to control all of the American population. Perhaps that's why Pres. Bush, before he left office, signed an agreement with Canada to "help militarily" if there were a problem like Hurricane Katrina in the US. My opinion: long term occupation would have to include many foreign troops. A Red Dawn scenario may not be so far fetched.

[rockriver]

i'm not military.. and have not served...
a suggestion.. watch what the military is told about the growing situation and in particular the people involved. what group is demonized?
example.. movies, newsreels, education of the general public or inparticular the military classes.. establishing a mindset that a certain group are evil.

if the news is constantly full of the Jews are evil, greedy, people who are taking advantage of other nations and not allowing friendly, simple starving tribesmen access to stores and commerce--

or the news is full of the evil christians are marching again out in front of the friendly community doctor's office, spilling hate filled speech, violating the doctors legal right to perform his practice which benefits so many people,
and their continued stand that they are the only ones who are going to heaven, that all others are damned and going to an eternal fire, and preaching the disrespect of others, saying that if you don't work, you don't eat..

or, the news is full of the hatred shown by americans who are no longer sending wheat to china the chinese are starving. the americans have sent wheat to china for decades and now they've stopped and the fat americans could send wheat if they wanted to.. look at all the strarving chinese who are friendly and kind and considerate people. they must be fed. its americas obligation as they have so much... they are evil for not sharing what they have...

if the general population, including the military are constantly ingrained with a certain mindset, then it will be easier for them to feel justified in performing acts against the evil_____________

[Irish-Tech]

Not much you can do about a tank or a group of 30-50 men with AK's wondering around pillaging the country side. let them have the corn they see, and hope they don't see the other field behind the tree line with the rest of the crops.

[Klayton]

Well for all those that have not seen it, check out the youtube video of New Orleans:Katrina:National Guard.

Military (yes I know national guard) but they are still a form of military.
A national guardsman on video states, we don't like that we have to go in here and disarm civilians but we have to follow orders (paraphrasing).

Point being, there are enough mindless robots in the military that follow orders blindly.
Likewise there are A LOT of "give me" Soldiers now, in 2008 (while still active) we had a poll on who everybody was voting for, over 75% were voting for Obama, number 1 reason why: so he will get us out of combat, I don't want to go to combat ever... (as I read that I was like, then why the heck did you join the military, only to be answered by number 2 reason: I am here for college money only)...

Point is, don't trust "what you know" about the military if you have been out of it too long. My dad couldn't believe it when I told them Soldiers do NOT have to shine their boots anymore. But there ya go, too many lazy Soldiers, and we now have noniron uniforms, and nonshine boots...

[kilowhiskey]

I met with a like-minded friend today to talk a bit and have a cuppa. During the discussion, the topic of long-term survivability came up. To play devil's advocate for a second, I have a serious question.

You're at your BOL, you have a good crop going, which is good because you're coming to the end of the stored food. You're looking forward to harvest in a week or two. It's six months/year after the collapse, you've survived the golden hoard and the following die off, and you feel pretty well set. You hear a noise, and see an Abrahams tank pulling up in front of your house. The big tube points toward your front door, and a head pops out of the top. The guy waves, then tells you, "Hi, we're from the government, and we're here to help ourselves." You look down at your trusty AR or AK, then back at the tank. You know that if they take the crop, you're not going to make it through the winter, and all the work you put in getting that crop is out the window.

The bottom line here is, Are we kidding ourselves? Are we setting ourselves up to be the last to starve to death? The .gov exists to perpetuate itself. The .gov has the big guns. They're probably making a list and checking it twice to see who has what out here, and know who to go to first when they run out of cheerios. They will probably have a pretty good idea how many guns they're facing, but they won't care. Ref: Abraham's tank. Maybe they come knocking with a couple of 105's through the roof before they even show up. The bottom line is that the average homeowner isn't going to be able to take that on.

Not trying to dissuade anybody here, just trying to keep it real. Will it be enough to hunker down? How do you hide a field of corn or wheat or whatever? I think preparing is the responsible thing to do, especially if you have children, but I am seriously wondering about the end game here.

OP, what's the alternative? I'd rather be the last to survive than the first. That gives me time to look for alternatives.

-KW

[Bearman202]

Kilo, we were just musing on the possibilities. I know that a lot of the military is going to disappear if we get a nationwide SHTF scenerio. When I was in, they were doing one of their normal "budget crisis" things, and a lot of the guys were joking about us being a "volunteer" force. Mostly, what I had in mind were some rogue outfits that had access to heavy weapons using them for their own purposes. Anybody can CLAIM to be from the govt. and if they're riding a Bradly armored vehicle at the time, what are you going to say?

Cim, I agree with you, which is why I keep prepping. There is a distinct possibility that I could lose it all, either to the roving band of zombies or the "official" with a piece of paper, but I feel like I have some kind of duty to at least try. I don't want to be sitting in my apartment a week after the lights go out thinking, "Man, all I needed to do was to buy a couple of candles!" We can't know what's going to happen, so we prepare for the worst and pray for the best.

[kilowhiskey]

Hey Bear, I know you're just musing the possibilities, but the way I see it, there's no way to fight the military. Having seen them in action, it is simply impossible. Instead, I'd prefer to not keep all my supplies in one spot. Whether stored with someone else or buried, by doing this I do not have to risk my families lives defending against the impossible. Better to lose a little and survive to fight the next battle than to take on a tank (as in your scenario) and lose everything. YMMV.

-KW

[Mannlicher]

Regardless of how hopeless the future looks, be assured that a LOT of folks will survive. Some due to preparations, some due to just being in the right place at the right time.

Personally, I am of the mindset that if a fellow can gain an edge with survival due to hard work and planning, then I'm going in that direction.

Others look at every possible scenario that COULD happen, throw up their hands, and just give up.

[Bearman202]

Good points, all. I like what Knocky said. Yeah, we may not win, but if what we're doing gives us just THAT much of an edge, it might be enough. There is no way to know for sure what will happen, or when. That's the frustrating part. In tornado season, you can watch the weather, but there is no earthquake season, and we never know for sure when that CME is going to come through. At best, we may get a day's warning. When that terrorist gets her hands on a tactical nuke and sets it off over the heart of the grid is anybody's guess. Again, I don't want to be the one sitting around going, "if I'd just went ahead and done .... I'd be in a lot better shape!" It's way too easy to get discouraged, and even easier to get so paranoid that it causes a paralysis, but once you get past those two points, you do what you can, right?