Are we kidding ourselves?

[Bearman202]

I met with a like-minded friend today to talk a bit and have a cuppa. During the discussion, the topic of long-term survivability came up. To play devil's advocate for a second, I have a serious question.

You're at your BOL, you have a good crop going, which is good because you're coming to the end of the stored food. You're looking forward to harvest in a week or two. It's six months/year after the collapse, you've survived the golden hoard and the following die off, and you feel pretty well set. You hear a noise, and see an Abrahams tank pulling up in front of your house. The big tube points toward your front door, and a head pops out of the top. The guy waves, then tells you, "Hi, we're from the government, and we're here to help ourselves." You look down at your trusty AR or AK, then back at the tank. You know that if they take the crop, you're not going to make it through the winter, and all the work you put in getting that crop is out the window.

The bottom line here is, Are we kidding ourselves? Are we setting ourselves up to be the last to starve to death? The .gov exists to perpetuate itself. The .gov has the big guns. They're probably making a list and checking it twice to see who has what out here, and know who to go to first when they run out of cheerios. They will probably have a pretty good idea how many guns they're facing, but they won't care. Ref: Abraham's tank. Maybe they come knocking with a couple of 105's through the roof before they even show up. The bottom line is that the average homeowner isn't going to be able to take that on.

Not trying to dissuade anybody here, just trying to keep it real. Will it be enough to hunker down? How do you hide a field of corn or wheat or whatever? I think preparing is the responsible thing to do, especially if you have children, but I am seriously wondering about the end game here.

[Tofu]

Bear you are not too far off here historically speaking. The MRE, K ration, etc. is a relatively modern creation. It wasn't until the Napoleonic Wars that canning was adopted for armies traveling great distances. Until then, armies foraged locally for their supplies. I think your concern is valid, just not likely. If they have the fuel to run tanks, then they have the ability to conscript Joe the farmer into growing and provisioning the military.

What I would worry about if a total SHTF scenario were to take place are all of the TV Dinner preppers that didn't think about food production/gardening and are running out of stored rice and beans and don't have a clue how to start, cultivate, harvest and store what they produce.

[crossbow]

After a collapse,within weeks, we'd probably see the same slime rising to the top, politicing and trying to tell us what is best for us and how they'd take care of us by taking from someone else.
It would be impossible and totally out of the question for the government to do a house search or even try to bother the people, there are about 100 million private homes and probably 1 and 1/2 million troops,1 million LEO, (first, they'ed have to get all the troops and equipment home and their first priority would be to ck on their families as there would be no cel ph service) the troops would have all they can do to protect our borders even with our help if our enemies wanted to invade us. LEO would have their hands full protecting their own famlies and taking care of the drug freaks,the looters and the people who live off the Gov tit. there's no doubt that there are Military and LEO personal who would turn their guns on their own people just like there was in Nazie Germany but the numbers are small and probably some of their own people would turn on them unlike Germany where everyone was scared and unarmed.Another thing, the government would want crops all harvested and ready to eat unless they wanted to starve everyone and they'ed just burn it.
for people to even be at their BOL and growing crops, there would have to be an economic collapse which means our money is worthless, for the government to even keep a military, they would have to come up with a payroll system of some sort, I'm sure no one is going to stay at their job out of loyalty for God and country in a complete collapse where it would be everyone for themselves.

[1Admin]

Tofu- "TV dinner preppers"

THAT IS AWESOME!!! Wow, sums it up pretty good huh?

[protus]

Tofu- "TV dinner preppers"

THAT IS AWESOME!!! Wow, sums it up pretty good huh?

good one tufu. gotta go crack open my eggs benedict mount. house for bfast be right back ;) LOL

[Okie]

i hadn't even CONSIDERED having to fight military and armed vehicles... im glad i read this


ADMIN EDITED- If you can't figure out why, email me.


i wouldnt of course put any together until after a global colapse. touchy topic, i know with all the terrorism going on. i..

[Rmplstlskn]

I think one really has to base their plans & supplies on what THEY BELIEVE the future may hold for them... What type of disasters, collapse, whatever is most likely FOR THEM, in their syudies and beliefs...

I personally base my plans, preps and focus on scenarios that spring from my "Hebrew Roots" faith, from where I believe we are in the whole TIMELINE of things... IF I am wrong, and it all goes down a different way, I will still have a good base of preps, but I will be screwed on many levels for there was somethings I CHOSE not to plan for...

Really, it is all about FAITH in your Creator to lead you, or it is all a crap shoot of luck... Take your pick...

Rmpl

[WiseOwl]

Good points.

If an Abrams pulls up to my front door, I guess all I could do is stuff a watermelon in the barrel and laugh.

And those TV Dinner Winners are everywhere man. So glad I could grow a tomato plant in a boot if I had to. They couldn't grow their own gardens if it was Farmville.

[byteshredder]

We're all Kulaks now!

American Homesteaders are the Russian "Kulaks" of the Marxist Revolution in 1917. Kulaks were the yeomen farmers who owned their own land and grew enough food to sustain their family and to trade with other farmers in the area. Here's a link to a wiki entry of what the Marxist did to Kulaks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

If you worked all summer, had a harvest in the fall, had a horse for transportation or a cow for milk; well then, you were an enemy of the Soviet people and you were dispatched in one of 3 ways as outlined in the above wiki.

If you're interested to learn more about the lengths that communism will go to control the means of ALL production watch this movie: http://kitmantv.blogspot.com/2009/05/soviet-tale.html

My point in this little history review is that it took only 5% of the Russian people to organize, provoke, and execute the Communist Revolution. Why did the other 95% allow this to happen? Why didn't they do something to stop it?

We cannot afford to rely on our own preparations to survive communism. These kind of zombies are well organized and better armed than we could ever hope to be. We need to stay engaged in current events and politics. We need to support political issues and politicians that match our values or we will be contributing to our own demise. History will judge us even more harshly than the 95% of Russians who minded their own business in 1917.

[Rmplstlskn]

We cannot afford to rely on our own preparations to survive communism. These kind of zombies are well organized and better armed than we could ever hope to be.

I think the premise that these Destroyers would have the 100% force of the military behind them is questionable... They will be well-armed to a point, then it would splinter and delaminate... There are some true Patriots within our military that won't allow that to go down without a fight...

Rmpl

[antishot]

I think the premise that these Destroyers would have the 100% force of the military behind them is questionable... They will be well-armed to a point, then it would splinter and delaminate... There are some true Patriots within our military that won't allow that to go down without a fight...

Rmpl

I totally agree

[byteshredder]

The Great Purge

That's how Stalin dealt with generals that threatened his power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

"The purge of the army removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to six-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to four- and five-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy), 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars."

Many of the Russian people put their faith into the military leaders of their time to serve as a counter-balance to the rapidly growing power of the central government. Their trust was mis-placed.

byteshredder
"A crisis is the playground of tyrants." - James Madison, 4th President

[Rmplstlskn]

That's how Stalin dealt with generals that threatened his power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

"The purge of the army removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to six-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to four- and five-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy), 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars."

Personally, top brass removed might be a good thing, but they are not the Destroyers problem... It is the lower brass, the NCO's, the enlisted... Our military works differently than a Soviet model... With us, if a head is cut off, the neck grows a new one instantly... Give me a loyal cadre of NCO's anyday... That's who I would want to be lead by...

Rmpl

[Grand58742]

Okay, so I understand it...the collapse of society was six months ago. Are we talking an all out TEOTWAWKI situation or a national SHTF? It makes a difference in your scenario.

But I'll move on the assumption it's a TEOTWAWKI situation. It's not the military or the continuance of a normal government you have to be worried about. It's the scattered remains of same. Take that episode in Jericho for example when the "Marines" come into town with the hopes and dreams of getting things back to "normal." Everyone is happy, bends over backwards to help and never questions the motives or power behind the rescuers. Same situation can and will happen in our TEOTWAWKI situation. Folks will find random military gear lying around (like tanks, APCs and such) since there is no fuel to run them. They can use it as a ruse to get supplies or as a weapon to demand them. How can you tell the difference in government troops there to help or those just masquerading as same? Simple answer, you can't. And just like the contractors in the show Jericho, everything is taken for the "good" of the people. And revolution is the only alternative to giving in to the greed and desires of others.

But the threat comes from the random bands of former military troops that will use that experience and gear to form their own collectives and rule by force. Rape, rob and pillage their way across certain areas, taking what they want and need by use of overwhelming force when they need to. They show up with bands of young men and women demanding food, water, fuel, weapons, etc. You fight back and kill a few of them. They show up with their tank and greater numbers. And there's the ball game folks. They know you have something they want. You have it and you refuse to barter with them. They come and take it.

There are two distinct types of military people these days...and probably has been for a while now. The older, more experienced types with families who are mainly conservative and could be assets to a potential survival community. They are often worried about their families and some, perhaps many, would end up bugging out as well to see to their safety. They understand duty and commitment, but also understand family is important as well. They can and will bug out eventually and settle back in their hometowns or wherever they could go. And they will probably bring beans, bullets and band-aids with them. They may not know how to farm or prepare long life foods, but they will know about security and protection. They will know about hard work, dedication and family values. These would tend to cause you little trouble and could be powerful allies.

Then there are the younger crowds that haven't been tempered by age who think because they have a gun in their hands, they can demand what they want. There will be hotheads who use their military training and form bands who rule by power of the fist. The "give me" generation that hasn't had to work for anything their entire lives and now could be placed into a situation where they will have to survive on their own. There are no older, cooler heads to temper the rashness of youth. All their NCOs and officers have bugged out and they are on their own. They will use their newly acquired power to your disadvantage. Maybe they end up sticking together, maybe not. They will fight amongst themselves, but claim geographic areas for their own. They join rivals to get what they want and move back to their fiefdoms. And not unlike the knights of old that protected the local area for a "fee," they guarantee you protection for the same, but also rule because they have the power. They may not know how to farm or prepare long life foods, but they know how to operate that M2A2 Bradley and know they can get what they need with it. They may assimilate into your community as powerful allies or they might rule it with an iron fist. These are the types you need to be wary of.

How can you tell the difference? There is no easy way. Some of the older generation will be like the younger ones. Some of the younger will be like the older. But when good order and discipline breaks down in the military, there will be anarchy within the ranks since less experienced people will be put in charge and push the limits of what they can get away with. And when order breaks down and the supplies stop coming, they will go and get what they need to survive. One thing the military teaches is survival. Some food for thought there.

This is not a military rant or anything against those who served or are serving (as I currently am) but a practical outlook on the situation. It's slightly off topic as there is no "end game" here. Just something to put into your minds to think about.

[rice paddy daddy]

While some things have changed in the 40+ years I have been out of the Army, I don't believe the rank and file would act like the OP's scenario. We all knew what constituted an illegal order, we were well trained in that, even before things like the My Lai Massacre was made public.