Paintball - Useful training or Wasteful Entertainment?

[Pilgrim]

For an everyday working class person, spending $500 plus on tactical training is, unfortunately, unfeasible. I propose that a cheap alternative would paintball. There are several advantages to this:

1. Cheap - Where I live, there are several courses ranging from $30 - $60 for a whole afternoon.

2. Versatile - You can go with all kinds of different people, and enact many different scenarios. This has the potential to broaden your ability in a range of situations. You could go with just a couple of buddies and work on moving silently, detection, etc.. Or you could organize a large group of people and practice working as a team, strategic decisions, using terrain to your advantage... you get the point.

3. Popular - Training for TEOTWAWKI right out in the open! All the freedom to work on the notes mentioned above, without anyone raising an eyebrow.

Anyways, what do you think? Maybe there are far better ways to spend my money, get better bang for my buck. I know that the obvious downside is that a paintball gun is not a real one, so carrying that one around, I assume, is far different. But I would venture to say that training your mindset is quite beneficial. Paintball could help with that.

[protus]

force on force airsoft (indoors) is a better than paint ball imho. The plus side is if you purchase one that is a 1:1 scale in both weight and size, and operation, if gives a you a chance to work on muscle memory, with out going to the range and to work on skills so you dont lose them. It is not a substitue for real shooting, but it can take up the place that 1-300 rounds would be spent doing reps of certain ones.With ammo cost/avaiablity thats a major plus imho.
My airsift is a green gas ,blow back one, so operationis identical to my real sidearm.

[1Admin]

I had this whole reply typed out yesterday and then I lost it... drats...

We have to make the distinction between TRAINING and PRACTICE.

Training is where we learn new skills, sometimes under a good instructor, receive corrections were needed and build our skill sets.

Practice is what we do to KEEP those skill sets.

I don't believe in the "it takes 17 million repetitions of something to get muscle memory down." But you DO need to practice.

A good example is the IDPA/IPSC type threads you see on survival message boards.

A guy without any formal training goes to an IDPA shoot. All the "big dogs" with the good scores are doing really stupid stuff like sticking their rifles through the little window holes, stopping right out in the open to reload their weapons, etc. New guy goes "well Big Dog did it and his score rocks. So he MUST know what he's doing." New guy commences to emulate Big Dog and in the process instills some really bad habits that will get him killed one day.

Paintball can be very similar. I've watched guys duck behind palmetto leaves repeatedly for "cover" from paintballs. The saying is true that what you do in training you will do for real- it's been proven by people like Lt. Col Grossman. So what happens when the rifle bullet whizzes right through the palmetto leaf? You get dead.

That is the real danger IMO- instilling bad habits.

Other drawbacks would be that you are not using your weapon or a close copy of it. My AK does not have a 300 round hopper on top of it. And while they can be shot one handed, you won't do it for long. Also, your are not required to carry any complimenting gear. If your 300 round hopper is full, all you might carry is a camelbak for water and maybe a lightweight tube that contains a few more paintballs. No need for working with a vest or LBV type setup to support 6 or more magazines, etc.

Of the two mentioned already, airsoft would be the better bet IMO. And then only for specific things like close quarters work, working disarms, movement drills, etc.

[rkramseb]

I like to use both...Like you say...I dont carry 300+ rounds in my mag...great for tactics training...cover or conceilment...big dfference in real world...evryday before I hit the road, practice my draw at least10 times...makes a difference. If you wear a vest, wear it and shoot with it, if you expect to waer a full kit, then train in it. Just train, train and train...

[Longhunter]

PAIN IS A GREAT TEACHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

A few years ago, I was in one of the 'stans training members of their army. The training was mainly CQB/MOUT type training. A few weeks went by with the trainees improving everyday. They looked smooth going through the shoot house "dry". Before we let them go "hot", we figured we would throw in a paintball scenerio. We issued out the paintball guns and protective gear and told them the scenerio. It was going to be 3 US guys in the second story of a building. Teams of 6-8 'stanis would have to move about 50 m across a field with only minimal cover. They would enter the building, clear the first floor, stairs and move to the second floor. On the second floor, we had two rooms. The first room had a good view of the open field as well as the stairwell. The second room was made off limits to the 'stanis, as they cleared the building, the three US guys would move to that room. This was so we wouldn't shoot each other at a distance of 10 feet. We put up paper tgts on the first floor as well as the first room of the second floor to give them something to shoot at as they entered the building.

Everyone was briefed and a US cadre would follow the 'stanis around to critique their performance. Once again we reiterated their training; proper use of cover, fire and manuever, etc, etc. I was one of the 3 US aggressors. The whistle blew and the fun started. The first team to do the drill was a disaster. The guys on the team just lost their minds. Guys running and shooting at the same time with one hand, guys just hunkering down behind cover and not moving, no communication to cover teammates movements. The next team went, same thing. They didn't even make it to the second floor. Guys were picking up paintballs off the gound to try and shoot because they ran out of ammo. We had to call it quits to do some remedial training. A unit that looked good in training fell apart when a little pain was introduced. A few days later they improved and we did paintball again with better results.

Paintball can be used as good practice. But you need to already have good training that you can build upon. Without having had good training and knowing what really works, you are just building on bad habits.

However, paintball is useful. You can find guns that replicate AKs,M4s, and such. But even with regular paintball guns, you can have some useful practice. You don't have to have 300 rds in that hopper. I 've practiced break contact drills with 20 rds in my hopper. Not so much fun when you can't just spray, but more realistic. Practice having good stand off from the cover you are using i.e. don't be right against it. A good rule of thumb is an arm or barrel length back off of cover so you can see more of them and they less of you. And yes I understand what stops paintballs, won't always stop bullets. Cover vs concealment and all that. Use that, incorporate that into your scenerios. Basic gun safety/weapons handling, casualties, downed vehicles, battle drills the list goes on as to what you can practice with paintball. But, paintball is only good practice if you have some good traing to build upon. Otherwise you are just out there doing unrealistic things and you probably won't even realize it. Invest in some good training and maintain those skills in any number of ways, to include paintball. Remember SHOOT, MOVE, and COMMUNICATE. I hope this helps.

[Lowdown3]

PAIN IS A GREAT TEACHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

A few years ago, I was in one of the 'stans training members of their army. The training was mainly CQB/MOUT type training. A few weeks went by with the trainees improving everyday. They looked smooth going through the shoot house "dry". Before we let them go "hot", we figured we would throw in a paintball scenerio. We issued out the paintball guns and protective gear and told them the scenerio. It was going to be 3 US guys in the second story of a building. Teams of 6-8 'stanis would have to move about 50 m across a field with only minimal cover. They would enter the building, clear the first floor, stairs and move to the second floor. On the second floor, we had two rooms. The first room had a good view of the open field as well as the stairwell. The second room was made off limits to the 'stanis, as they cleared the building, the three US guys would move to that room. This was so we wouldn't shoot each other at a distance of 10 feet. We put up paper tgts on the first floor as well as the first room of the second floor to give them something to shoot at as they entered the building.

Everyone was briefed and a US cadre would follow the 'stanis around to critique their performance. Once again we reiterated their training; proper use of cover, fire and manuever, etc, etc. I was one of the 3 US aggressors. The whistle blew and the fun started. The first team to do the drill was a disaster. The guys on the team just lost their minds. Guys running and shooting at the same time with one hand, guys just hunkering down behind cover and not moving, no communication to cover teammates movements. The next team went, same thing. They didn't even make it to the second floor. Guys were picking up paintballs off the gound to try and shoot because they ran out of ammo. We had to call it quits to do some remedial training. A unit that looked good in training fell apart when a little pain was introduced. A few days later they improved and we did paintball again with better results.

Paintball can be used as good practice. But you need to already have good training that you can build upon. Without having had good training and knowing what really works, you are just building on bad habits.

However, paintball is useful. You can find guns that replicate AKs,M4s, and such. But even with regular paintball guns, you can have some useful practice. You don't have to have 300 rds in that hopper. I 've practiced break contact drills with 20 rds in my hopper. Not so much fun when you can't just spray, but more realistic. Practice having good stand off from the cover you are using i.e. don't be right against it. A good rule of thumb is an arm or barrel length back off of cover so you can see more of them and they less of you. And yes I understand what stops paintballs, won't always stop bullets. Cover vs concealment and all that. Use that, incorporate that into your scenerios. Basic gun safety/weapons handling, casualties, downed vehicles, battle drills the list goes on as to what you can practice with paintball. But, paintball is only good practice if you have some good traing to build upon. Otherwise you are just out there doing unrealistic things and you probably won't even realize it. Invest in some good training and maintain those skills in any number of ways, to include paintball. Remember SHOOT, MOVE, and COMMUNICATE. I hope this helps.

Awesome post, couldn't agree more.

[Pilgrim]

Ah Ha! This is what I signed up for on this forum! Awesome points, I really have to focus on how I'm developing my habits. I can definitely see how paintball can help maintain good ones, but probably can't teach them in the first place. I will definitely look into airsoft play. But until I can afford proper training, what can I do to develop some good habits (on the cheap!)?

[Longhunter]

Pilgrim,
1. Exactly what kind of training are you looking for?

2. Right now where are you as far as your level of training?

3. What weapons/equipment are you looking to train with?

As far as cheap training, I'm sorry but a really don't have a great answer for you. I will say this; start by getting to know your weapon and your equipment. Know the ins and outs of your weapon. Practice assembly and dissassembly. Do some research as to what type of ammo works best with your weapon. Find out what is the best distance to zero that weapon. Find out the hold offs for various distances with that zero.

I will recommend two books that I think are great for anyone:
"Green Eyes and Black Rifles" by Kyle Lamb
SH 21-76 The Ranger Handbook

I hope I didn't turn you off from paintball. Get out there and play a few games. Get some excercise, meet some people, experience some pain, and yes have some fun. As long as you realized paintball is not the end all be all.

Here is a freebie from me. Tailored for the M4/M16 series of rifles, but can be adjusted for any weapon system.
HOW TO PROPERLY CLEAR YOUR WEAPON:
1. Point the weapon in a safe direction.
2. Attempt to place the weapon on safe.
3. Remove the source of feed. (magazine)
4. Perfrom a 3 point safety check: check the chamber, bolt face and magazine well to ensure they are clear.

Perfect practice makes perfect. Take care Pilgrim.

[Longhunter]

I hope I didn't turn you off from paintball. Get out there and play a few games. Get some excercise, meet some people, experience some pain, and yes have some fun. As long as you realized paintball is not the end all be all.

Here is a freebie from me. Tailored for the M4/M16 series of rifles, but can be adjusted for any weapon system.
HOW TO PROPERLY CLEAR YOUR WEAPON:
1. Point the weapon in a safe direction.
2. Attempt to place the weapon on safe.
3. Remove the source of feed. (magazine)
4. Perfrom a 3 point safety check: check the chamber, bolt face and magazine well to ensure they are clear.

Pilgrim, I was reading what I last posted and I feel like I might have sounded a little rude or condescending. You never claimed paintball was the end all be all. That was a poor choice of words on my part.

As far as the clearing your rifle, it seems like everyday in the army there is some report of a soldier having an accidental discharge(AD) with their weapon. And I have lost track of the number of times I've been at a civilian range and seen people doing unsafe things with their weapons. I was just bringing up a basic skill that is sometimes taken for granted. I wasn't trying to say anything about your current skill set.

Sorry about any confusion. :o Take care. Longhunter.

[crossbow]

I think the best training a person can get is hunting and fishing with his dad or some other grown up when they're very young, the most important first thing is Patience and discipline. You teach a kid how to quietly slip thru the woods without cracking or moving branches and he'll survive. My kids knew as much about gun saftey as the instructor did before they were six.
as Longhunter said, pratice don't make perfect, perfect pratice makes perfect.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

All Training is good but it will never duplicate the real thing. Paintball needs to be combined with other types of training then afterwords it is important that you critic what went right and wrong. Paintball leads to bad training in ways such as one hit your down and out of the game. In real life not so, stay in the fight. Combine this trainging with airsoft instead of paintball with the same folks and half of them will never even know they were hit.
On the cheap, I am my worst critic so I video all my training then critic it later. Cell phone cameras or a small digital camers will work great. I see all the stupid things I do and then try and correct the form in the next go round. A word of caution however on showing anyone and everyone these. A lot of folks will begin to think bad thoughts of you if they view them. OPSEC

[Davar]

I think the best training a person can get is hunting and fishing with his dad or some other grown up when they're very young, the most important first thing is Patience and discipline. You teach a kid how to quietly slip thru the woods without cracking or moving branches and he'll survive. My kids knew as much about gun saftey as the instructor did before they were six.
as Longhunter said, pratice don't make perfect, perfect pratice makes perfect.

Crossbow,
I agree. If you can slip through the woods and not spook a deer or an elk, you just might be able to slip past a human. I am axious to teach my children how to operate a weapon, but I have to wait just a little while, they are 3,1 and soon to be born right now. I think that the hunting approach is definately closer to that of a sniper. However, combat isn't much like hunting as I think it would be.

[Bourbon]

I do airsoft and I can tell if I get hit.
Those things hurt (especially at point blank.. on full auto).

[Matt In Oklahoma]

"What is the difference between a duck?" One of his bills are alike? LOL

[Knobster]

Excellent thread. I've got my eye on an Airsoft Colt 1911. I just need to find a group of people to go have some fun (training) with now.