Weapon support gear for the prepared citizen.

[Hawkeye]

Looking for some serious thought/input here. My friend and I have started our own business, and will be coming out with our own line gear. There are many GREAT gear companies out there right now, but, most all of their gear is designed with focus on primarily the military and law enforcement communities, and of course the competition community. Our gear, is going to be primarily designed and focused towards the preparedness minded citizen.
As prepared citizens, our situation will in and of itself dictate that we have to function in a different manner than what LE and Military do, thus its only logical that our support gear for our weapons will have to be tailored a bit different as well. We will most likely have to work as small teams of friends and family at best, unlike the much larger numbers of the LE/Mil side. We also wont have the same logistical supply and support chain that they do. To protect our homes and such, in a truly worst case scenario, we will have to function much like a guerilla fighter, in a unconventional manner. Be it against bands of looters, gang bangers, rioters, ....or worse, for the most part we wont want to be engaging in actual shooting, unless we absolutely have to. We will have to mind our ammo, as we obviously wont have the ability to just hop online and order more, or call in for a resupply, etc. Calling in backup most likely wont be an option. Our gear is going to have to be as good a quality as it possibly can be, as it will have to last an indefinite amount of time, under harsh conditions. The ability to clean it and maintain it, probably wont be an option like it is now, and it will be getting used probably daily, vs. just on the occasion we are training with it now. If our gear goes down in bad times, there wont be any hopping on the internet and ordering a new one. I say all that just to give you some perspective of where we are coming from, as well as some food for thought. We must look at each area of our preparedness, with as much seriousness as we can afford to. Just as you wouldnt want to store your food in cheap low grade plastic buckets that will crack and dry rot, you dont want cheap gear thats going to fall apart on you or be so uncomfortable that you cant even use it.

That all said, I'm looking for a little input on what you like, dont like, etc., in regards to carrying support gear for your weapon.... i.e.- mags and such. Right now, we have a couple of rigs that we'll be bringing out, that we've been using for a couple of years. We are trying to take that to a better level though, and are working on some new stuff. For the time being, we are mainly focused on the AR and AK platforms, as those are the most prevelant. Other platforms may be an option in the future depending on demand and interest.

One question I'll ask specifically, is, what do you prefer in the way of magazine retention? Something simple like bungee corded pull tabs? Full flaps over the mag/pouch? There are reasons that we can think of for both, but I'm not sure how many folks have ever really thought about it and how it applies to the prepared citizen.

[Spock]

These are all very good questions and points you bring up. for instance on my gear there is no radio pouch. i either "roll" alone or with 4-5 other people within shouting distance. Like you said a "small" group.

on mag pouchs i run an AK as you are aware. I use flapped pouchs. currently they are blackhawks coupled ar15 mag pouch which will fit 2 un coupled AK mags. I have two issues with them. 1. the 2 mags go in the pouch side by side with mo material between them. some times one mag snags on the other and trys to pull the second mag out with the 1st one. 2. i can't detatch the flap. there are certian, muddy situations that I want the flap there to keep crap off my mag and other times when i want more speed accessing the mag. There aren't alot of good AK mag pouchs out there. everything seems to be an enlarged m4 pouch. I have a spec ops or spector mag pouch thats a "universal" it holds 2 ak mags or 2 m14 mags or 3 m4 mags but it really doesn't hold AK mags all that great. HSGIs Tacos look great but they leave the mag expoused to the elements.

the rig I use is a bit..... unusual. Its a woodland USGI Combat Medic Vest with the pistol belt attached.

I personally LOVE the thing. the only thing I'd change on it is fewer adjustment straps/buckles and the back panel to have PALS webbing other than that I don't think I'd trade it. the belt helps put some of the load on the hips the shoulders have wide comfortable padding. even integrating hydration into it wasn't too hard. oh and I'd love the change the color to marpat or multicam.

this is it except I have all different pouchs on it:



another piece of gear for me I'd like is a holster that attachs to the alice pistol belt but that is of a better design than the m12. the m12 works fine for my cz75 but for the xd9 tends to snag in it and the retention system is from 1912.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

How about a EDC bag-backpack thats made for guns and magazines, water etc that doesn't look like it. So it's not made in OD green, black or sand with molle loops and skull patches etc. I'm not a fan of the single strap murse that men are carrying because they stick out screaming "tactical" and "I have a gun". The bags that are out there claim to be covert but are anything but.

[Hawkeye]

How about a EDC bag-backpack thats made for guns and magazines, water etc that doesn't look like it. So it's not made in OD green, black or sand with molle loops and skull patches etc. I'm not a fan of the single strap murse that men are carrying because they stick out screaming "tactical" and "I have a gun". The bags that are out there claim to be covert but are anything but.

Probably a topic for another thread...but just to play devils advocate for a sec ;) .... screams tactical, to....who? You and I? or the other 90% of the population/sheep herd...?

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Probably a topic for another thread...but just to play devils advocate for a sec ;) .... screams tactical, to....who? You and I? or the other 90% of the population/sheep herd...?

I thought it was me/you but then while I was at lunch with a sheeple the other day a guy walked by with a od green murse and the sheeple looks at me and says hey isnt that one of them gun bags? I thought they couldnt carry in here. sheeple aint even got a gun of his own so I made a mental note of it. Sorry don't want to pull away from your stuff, thought it went along with it. Looking for a good gun gear backpack that doesnt stand out as a "citizen". I like to be out and about in places like lets say the grand canyon, church events, shopping mall and not look like a mercenary contractor but still have the tools needed.

[Hawkeye]

Understood. That may be something to add to the list down the road. As to the rest, we'll do a different thread discussing those issues/concerns. :)

[protus]

well scenerio always dictates what load out you have.
I loved the amount of junk i could carry on my old LBV, but it sucked to wear the thing for long periods of time.I like my HSGI warlord, but again...its to much at times.
I like my modular TT vest. Best of both worlds, but the shoulders need at least some padding.

IMHo for what most of us would be doing, would be a small low pro rig with the basics and a belt set up. Of course the abilty to rock 6 mags and full kit is a plus. But it is like trying to build the perfect do all race car, one that does a fast 1/4 mile, but can hang with the F1 crowd, while still do rally runs, and not burn through gas and tires like a NASCAR would.. you'll end up with a vega :P


so....

a low pro with 1.5 mil webbing for shoulder straps with some closed cell on teh shoulder points. webbing for hydrotubes /comm wire.
Qd's at the sides and top of the strap points.
two piece front. velcro admin behind each side.
kinda like a mav.
Hydro is a plus but dont see how to keep it low pro unless you make a slim line carrier that will use malic to back of the shoulder straps ( x them or make it an H harness like the OSOE one)
this way, the kit could be worn with a backpack or under clothing if need be.


me i like flaps. removable is a plus. But the issue with most is that with an AK unless its a long enough flap with a deep enough pouch they'll slide over and expose teh mags. My HSGI ummps do that,due to the pouch sidewalls being to short.

just randm thoughts as i eat LOL....

[610Alpha]

Glad to hear this...hope this business venture works out.

I only have experience with the Army LBE. The mag pouches seemed to stiff and difficult to get the cover over the top of the mags (30 rd).

If for extended use you want durable even when regular care is almost non-existent.

Good dense padding like Protus said.

Make the system easy to customize, it will be hard to make a one style suits everyone but letting the user add pouches as they see fit will be easier for you. Too many varying body sizes and shapes to accomodate. Basic adjustments and then make it easy for the wearer to place the various pouches where they like them, seems obvious I know but I see a lot of vests/LBE stuff that isn't that modular or only modular in certain parts.

Look at the major brands out there and don't do the things that drive you nuts about their stuff.

Flaps are nice, might be best to build your mag pouches from the ground up. Might take a couple tries but if there aren't any AK pouches out there sounds like you will have an in to the marketplace on that front. I might focus on getting that up and going since it sounds like there aren't any mag pouches for AK out there that do a good job.

Might help to see some pics or vid of what you have...maybe protus will make the adjustable slings for you :) I think it was one of his vids that i saw about this.

my two copper pieces: Grow slowly! & Partnerships are the only ships that don't sail (very rarely do they work out the way you want them to).

[Mikeg175]

Would definitely like to some kind 'camalbak' option on anything , you need to stay hydrated , also like the camalbaks , they have different size packs , so vest with a small type back on the back . Also maybe angle the mag holders some , most have them coming straight up and a slight angle can help get them out faster . Also a few smaller pouches for tools , like a leatherman or SOG tool . Also they should made to adjust in size , if your using in middle of summer , you can size it smaller , then as you need to add layers it can be adjusted bigger . You could also make the mag holders have elastic sides , so can expand a little for different type mags .
If you are making this for the prepared type person and not LEO/Military types or want it to blend some , I would suggest having some velcro attachments and sell them with some reflective patches , so if your wearing it and its not a tactical situation , it just looks like a super duper hiking setup . It should also contain a sleeve ( waterproof ? ) for a cellphone and maybe a clear sleeve for a gps . Maybe a detachable map pouch also .

[Rmplstlskn]

My thoughts on a "Survival Citizen" accoutrement...

Here is what I use now:




Tactical Tailor MAV with X-Harness and other TT pouches... Use is geared for "ARMED SURVIVAL" with a carbine, but it is also used for local shooting events with local Black Rifle club, which tends to be more like SWAT/Operator, fast & furious, rather than a long-term, slow and cautious, self-supporting role more inline with a survivalist. This is why the FAK (First Aid Kit) is so large and well-stocked, why a pair of binoculars ride in a pouch, a pistol rides on the MAV rather than a belt or drop holster, and other pouches have so much "survival" items in them... As compared to the "fast & furious" which tends to be ammo & armor heavy with smaller BOK (Blow Out Kits), no water, and less survival stuff... Also, the X-Harness shoulder straps are really comfy and a great design, except for the back (see commenst later). They really spread out the load...

As for mag pouches, I like the open ones like the TT ones I use. A simple bungee to strap them in if needed but are out of the way when they are not. They wrap around the mag body nicely, not leaving much room for dirt/debris to get in the pouch. Since most modern mags are fairly well closed (PMAG, etc...) and they go in the TT pouch lip side down, with good tension, I don't need a flap to keep them clean or in place. I'd rather have faster access than protection.

The only bummer is I wish I could keep the PMAG covers in place (removes feed lip stress during storage) in the TT pouch, but I have to fight it out with the cover in place. Sometimes the cover pops off as I am fighting it out and remains in the pouch, making an obstacle for the next use of that pouch until I take the time to fish it out...

I would also like the MAV to have more back carry option, or the ability to latch on a backpack, as well as it strapping in a "shooting belt" like the old ALICE gear does so that the chest rig & shoulder straps bear most of the belt weight...

I'd also be interested in how you plan on sewing this gear you plan on making. I have been dabbling with "tactical sewing" and have come to the conclusion that a good, industrial "walking foot" is a BARE MINIMUM for any tactical sewing that uses webbing. My old cast-iron Singer 66 beast just can't handle the thick #69 or thicker thread, nor the tensions needed.

Rmpl

[Hidden Agenda]

Best of luck on your endeavors. I truly wish you all the success you can manage!

Here's a couple of quick thoughts/suggestions. In the PAW, I imagine that most of us will be spending a lot more time working outside on our "retreat/homesteads" than we currently do, and will likely want/need more than just our sidearms quickly accessible/on us while we plant,weed, harvest, feed and care for critters, repair fence-lines, check traps/snares/tripwires, etc... yet full battle-rattle doesn't seem very realistic on a daily basis (although it may be necessary at times). Heat and humidity is also a factor for us here in FL, as well as elsewhere.

Like many others, I prefer to load/wear my gear in layers, (1st line, 2nd line, etc...). So how about something that is in between (kind of 1.5 line)?;
It' be great if it was light weight yet rugged, hydration compatible and included;
blow out kit
knife
sidearm/mags
rifle mag (maybe two?)
multi-tool pouch

Just a thought.

[protus]

problem is weight bulk.

Ok,. your working those raised beds...your wearing 4 mags, 2 pistol mags and knife, BOK. still lots of bulk weight for a 1% occurance.
Now a belt kit with thin suspenders would work, if it held your sidearm, one reload for it, and one rifle mag,knife and small BOK ( CAT,izzy,shears)..again your rifle will need to be in arms reach.
But honestly, it'd be better to carry your sidearm and have a small mag bag for your rifle...lay rifle and mag bag few feet from where your working.

i guess the easiest thing to do would be go put on your kit and dig a hole..LOL see how it feels after a few hours.. make sure your on your knees alot..aka gardening.
lay out a small obsticle course in your back yard. nothing like a real one but with real jobs..1st could be the "pull weeds". this is where your on your hands and knees and have to remove golf tee's from an area. From there would be the choping block. no axe? or wood? get a baseball bat or sledge hammer and pretend....then do the oil change ;p try and lay under your truck and do a repair..

I know im being smart,,but you'll find where your stuff binds up,snags or carries funny for those day to day events..

[Diz]

Hey Guys:

Thanks for all the input. Lots of good ideas and thoughts here. John and I are not trying to re-invent the wheel here, or just copy someone else and put our label on it to make a buck. What we are attemping to do is take a hard look at our weapons, equipment, and training, with a focus on what we, as armed civilians might face, and plan accordingly. In regards to our chest rigs, the main point is how we will likely employ it? As we go about our daily lives what makes the most sense in terms of access to our rifle gear? Working around the house and garden? Going on local trips or errands? Working away from home? Pulling security patrols? Each of these functions may have different answers. We see the chest rig as a deliberate carry method, either for elevated threat levels/ possible enemy contact in static mode, or for longer range, more dynamic patrolling. It is one tool in the tool kit, along with a modern-day "possibles" bag, and the war belt. While we feel that it is the most versatile, so we are starting with it, if there is a need for another bag or belt, we will take a look at them later as well.

The other driving force behind these rigs, is our recent conversion to AKs. While we are making both AR and AK versions, we feel that there is much ground left unplowed in the developement of a good AK rig. WE have spent the last few months working on all sorts of designs, trying to combine the important features of com-bloc rigs with better materials and hardware from western designs. We have found that a good AK rig must be designed from the ground up as an AK specific rig. You can't just scale up an AR rig or even have a good "universal" rig for both. The AK mag is very unique and demands a certain mag pouch to really hold it securely, yet allow reasonably fast access to it. SO we are working on both an open-top, and a top flap design with these things in mind.

[Cimarron]

Hey Guys:

Thanks for all the input. Lots of good ideas and thoughts here. John and I are not trying to re-invent the wheel here, or just copy someone else and put our label on it to make a buck. What we are attemping to do is take a hard look at our weapons, equipment, and training, with a focus on what we, as armed civilians might face, and plan accordingly. In regards to our chest rigs, the main point is how we will likely employ it? As we go about our daily lives what makes the most sense in terms of access to our rifle gear? Working around the house and garden? Going on local trips or errands? Working away from home? Pulling security patrols? Each of these functions may have different answers. We see the chest rig as a deliberate carry method, either for elevated threat levels/ possible enemy contact in static mode, or for longer range, more dynamic patrolling. It is one tool in the tool kit, along with a modern-day "possibles" bag, and the war belt. While we feel that it is the most versatile, so we are starting with it, if there is a need for another bag or belt, we will take a look at them later as well.

The other driving force behind these rigs, is our recent conversion to AKs. While we are making both AR and AK versions, we feel that there is much ground left unplowed in the developement of a good AK rig. WE have spent the last few months working on all sorts of designs, trying to combine the important features of com-bloc rigs with better materials and hardware from western designs. We have found that a good AK rig must be designed from the ground up as an AK specific rig. You can't just scale up an AR rig or even have a good "universal" rig for both. The AK mag is very unique and demands a certain mag pouch to really hold it securely, yet allow reasonably fast access to it. SO we are working on both an open-top, and a top flap design with these things in mind.

I look at this from the non-military/leo experience stand point (which is reasonable because I am ).

So I think of simplicity- is it no non-sense gear that any 'dummy' could figure out? For example, I found a good deal on a tactical chest piece that I still don't know what half of it is for. (yeah, I just referred to myself as a dummy ;) )

When you market it, will you be able to describe to the "sheep" or those newly awakened that want gear, the subtle differences of your gear compared to, let's say, a Special Forces unit? How would your product be better?

Just a couple questions from the ill-informed of your marketing base.

[610Alpha]

I was thinking about the title of this thread and I would suggest non-camo and stay away from all black, those scream tactical. I guess I am thinking along the lines of fishing vests that can be worn and no one really pays attention, put a couple lures on a vest but have your pockets and pouches stuffed with what you need. hope that helps.