Discussion of groups

[Rmplstlskn]

Take a very long and deep look at the Amish and other long term success stories, copy and adapt.

Yep, looked at them and others... This why I am not in any formed group now.

My family and I are oddballs in many ways. We are "community" survivalist-minded who believe in an authority structure like that of the Israelites Exodus from Egypt... A small group of Elders/Judges, Tribes (families), with the family head under Messiah (Christ) alone who shares that authority with the leaders.

In addition, we see Torah as our "Owner's Manual," so we keep YHWH's festivals and Sabbath (saturday/7th day) over man-made religious days (SUNday, Easter & Christmas, etc...), we also eat food that Scripture tells us is food, which is often the #1 reason why we have not joined with other groups or communities, as almost all are heavily PORK-based, or small critter-based for meals, hunting and food storage.

However, YHWH is greatly multiplying this "Hebrew Roots" movement, and the pool of "like-minded" people in our area has grown significantly, with almost all having a "crap is about to hit the fan" perspective, so the talk and "feeling out" of people and families for groups has already begun... So I have high hopes that I might find a group of "Israelites" soon that I can commit life, fortunes, and property with...

We'll see... I guess you could say we are all in the "group dynamics" phase now... LOL!

[Lowdown3]

Unfortunately the people we are talking about "grouping" with have probably not put as much time into studying or considering group dynamics and the psychology of community even though they are prepping and working on their skills.

Most people give very little thought to how their actions (or inactions) are perceived by others. Fewer still seem to care about how their actions or inactions are perceived by others.

I truly am sorry if I offended anyone, or if you feel I have over stepped my bounds, or even missed the mark. I do appreciate ALL opinions/replies and will learn from them.

Not a problem. You've obviously EXPERIENCED these things. I've been told many a times on smaller state forums that I was "being negative" because I brought similar group dynamics issues up. But what the hell do I know, I've only been doing this for 26 years and the people that told me that had maybe six months in and no actual time with a REAL group...

Experience talks, and wise people listen. It's completely useless to think that nothing will ever go wrong in a: friendship, love relationship, family, business partnership, church or survival group. That's not being realistic. No amount of smoothing over, smothering, hiding it, etc. covers over it when their is a problem. Their needs to be a "sit down" and everyone discusses it. Not to create "drama" but so that grievances are aired. That's the time when the placaters need to shut up and not try to pull a "can't we all just get along?" move. The problem is THERE by that point and no amount of sweeping it under the rug will cover it. Left alone, it will simply fester and it WILL come up again.

The problem comes when the problem is aired and immature types can't move forward after that. Always looking for a 'get back' at Joe Joe cause that time we had those issues.

The overall, true heart of the problem is that most people will not put their selfish desires/agenda/personality issues SECOND and make the group effort the primary focus. I've seen this time and time again.

If you are serious enough to join a survival group, consider WHAT you are doing with that group? Going fishing with those people? Making sushi with those people? Having a social function? NO! You are planning on SURVIVING A CATASTROPHE with those people. You may have to kill others outside of this circle of friends with these people at your side. You have to trust and be able to rely on them 110% No doubt should even enter your mind. If it does, it's time to start discussing that.

That's too close to the heart of the matter for most people and making their own personal issues second to survival is too much for most people to comprehend. Now their are needles in the haystack, but your going to have to search through the hay pile a lot, burn sections of it off from time to time, to find the needles. The nice thing about needles is, while they can get rusty, they are always strong.

[BioG8r]

Please bear with this rant for a few there really are points that we should all consider.

Please remember when you point the finger of blame three fingers are pointed back at you. (seriously, point at something! LOL)

We as Americans with our "Freedoms and Individuality" have grown or been trained to be intolerant of others.
We seem to have been trained by our surroundings, tv, print and even employment, in years of plenty, to reject others individuality.

We do seem to hide our own laziness/inattentiveness and intolerance in some sort of fake "master plan".

We hate without understanding, loath without compassion, desire without being worthy, use without knowledge, criticize without experience.
On the flipside - We also want to help without reward, WE JUST DON'T WANT TO BE PENALIZED FOR ASSISTING.

It is -- DRAMA -- that we, as a whole, speak against!

People here in this forum, are trying to overcome all of these undesirable traits and situations by understanding, learning, being compassionate and using our experience to create a better situation from what potentially is the worst case scenario. Unfortunately the people we are talking about "grouping" with have probably not put as much time into studying or considering group dynamics and the psychology of community even though they are prepping and working on their skills.

It will take a very tolerant, compassionate and patient person (or LEADER, lets face it, you are the one who put yourself and family in a position to offer shelter or to be of assistance to the larger community to "take in or combine with" other families or groups in times of trouble.) to overcome the internal family structure (rationalized chaos) that we all know exists even though we speak of it rarely.

I think of a family who;
Has a SPOILED BRAT 9 year old who is into everything and wasting resources like it is his job.
The 14 year old daughter who can’t get dirty because she has NEVER had to do anything except giggle on the phone.
What about the "DAYS OF OUR LIVES" wife who cannot grasp the concept that what she is living is ACTUAL REALITY and she must drop the drama NOW!
The father who has the ideas yet doesn't move on anything and depends on the rest of the family to make up for his lack of actual involvement.
The family leader who is an awesome prepper, leader, security member and group partner but is overbearing and tends to be offensive in the demands laid upon their family members.
The one talent wonder who is vital but a few times a month yet expects that since the group would suffer without that specific talent they are secure in their postion and contribute little to nothing the rest of the time.

Most families/groups who regularly experience this sort of behavior are brainwashed/bullied into accepting these misbehaviors as the norm.

I purposely did not include the disabled because we all would go out of our way to assist in a case like that, but we do need to consider the other members of said group and think about how little or great their compassion.

Who, of any of us, is prepared to take on the task of making the changes -in other families/units- to make sure that all of the group is working for the ultimate goal? Using resources responsibly and contributing to the group in a manner that does not cause internal implosion - !we are mostly an armed society!.

My experience in land cohabitation and intentional communities has shown me that;
1. Family Leaders tend to have great intentions, plans and are very sound characters who try to make up for inadequacies of their own families.
2. Seldom do all members of that family share the ideals, passion, direction and self-control of the family leader.
3. Even the best family leaders will turn away from their ideals when a less than cooperative family member is deemed as a trouble maker or nonfunctioning, drain on the society.
4. Committees can recommend but rarely have or use the power to see a negative judgment to its less than desirable, but necessary end.
5. Even with a VERY firm set of rules, guidelines or requirements that all believe in, vote on and CAN follow to the letter, the group will, in nearly 100% of the cases disband and fall apart because said rules are broken and then discarded because of exceptions.

In Closing NONE of us are perfect and ALL of us make mistakes and have a closet FULL of skeletons and undesirable traits. Individual TOLERANCE and family/group AUTONOMY are a MUST for a group to be successful. Everyone sharing a house or one person’s resources just doesn't work in the real world unless that person has a 75,000 sqft palace, unlimited resources and is magnanimous to the n-th degree.
Unfortunately we are not as dependable as we would all like to think. In cases of security and food - - One weak link and the chain is broken and not long enough to do the job - - WE ALL LOSE!

Take a very long and deep look at the Amish and other long term success stories, copy and adapt.

I know I will have a hard time just including my son, his wife and her child because of their family dynamic, she thinks she rules their family, (she bullies him) without a perceivable direction, plan or train of thought!

I truly am sorry if I offended anyone, or if you feel I have over stepped my bounds, or even missed the mark. I do appreciate ALL opinions/replies and will learn from them.

[Grinnan Barrett]

As stated before I am in one now.

I have been part of a group for a number of years. None of us went out to be in a group but rather the group evolved from friendships of long term. If I were not in this group I doubt that I would go out seeking one. There are several terms you have to consider when you talk groups. Trust, Friendship, Beliefs, Same moral compass, Willing to go to the wall for each other, Sharing, Dedication and Follow Through. You have to know the people you throw you lot in with.

Our group is made up of a bunch of good guys and gals who treat each other as family. I doubt that I could find that today if I had to start fresh. One guy put is well when he said "You have to be a friend to have friends". For those who are wanting to join a group I wish and pray that you find people like yourselves. If you are in the right group you will know it from the way you feel when you are around the others. In bad times you really find out quickly. GB

[pixel]

Pixel- normally we discourage questions like this here, but you did throw out a lot about your situation. If you choose not to answer that's fine just say so and no harm no foul.

How long has your group been together? A year as of now. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner lost internet just got it back.

Why do you not see a problem with someone stocking too many guns and ammo and not enough food?We all seem to balance one another out. The ones that stock more guns than food or more food than guns or more medical than whatever that is their specialty so the gun person has enough for the group, the medical person has enough for the group, and so on. We figure the nurse, doc, or emt should buy all the medical supplies since they know more about that sort of thing and then can make up kits for each individual in the group. The gun people do likewise suppling the group with extras when the shtf. Everyone has at least one gun most have at least two of their own but its nice to have spares or specialty items if the need arises. Same with medical and food.
We didn't say this is how it would be it just kind of worked out that way for everyone. Most people had a basic first aid kit but beyond that didn't know what else they would need to buy so thats where the emt and nurse step in to stock up on preps and buy for the group.
Its very much a group mentality and its a we all have to stick together we are weak and vulnerable as one but as a group we are strong mentality.
Do you not see this as a potential liability to the group?
Not really explained above.
We have to realize that it's extremely easy (for most people) to "share" now when times are a plenty. However when it's clear that no resupply is on the horizon, that's a different story, IMO. Just watch people get stupid over something they think is the "last of" and try to hoard it. Doesn't necessarily have to be survival supplies, but be the last flat screen TV on sale on Black Friday that people fist fight over. LOL aint that the truth. I think because of our various skill sets and backgrounds each of us knows we need the others so it all works out. What good is a gun or med kit or wheat if you don't know how to use it?

[Lowdown3]

Pixel- normally we discourage questions like this here, but you did throw out a lot about your situation. If you choose not to answer that's fine just say so and no harm no foul.

How long has your group been together?

Why do you not see a problem with someone stocking too many guns and ammo and not enough food? Do you not see this as a potential liability to the group? We have to realize that it's extremely easy (for most people) to "share" now when times are a plenty. However when it's clear that no resupply is on the horizon, that's a different story, IMO. Just watch people get stupid over something they think is the "last of" and try to hoard it. Doesn't necessarily have to be survival supplies, but be the last flat screen TV on sale on Black Friday that people fist fight over.

[pixel]

I seem to have found a pretty good group of people where I am so far so good and no problems with attitudes or issues of that nature. We all seem to hold similar religious and political beliefs although I have never asked anyone how they vote or what church they go to. Things like that have come up in casual conversation as to what political leanings or religious leanings one has though but never asked outright.

Some contribute more than others. Some thru physical labor, some thru their knowledge, others thru financial. We all understand not everyone can afford everything and dont require anyone to have certain items on a list. We understand that some people have more weapons but may be lacking in food while others may have more food but may be lacking in weapons. This seems ok with the group and I have not heard any complaints about John or Jane Doe not having as much of something and why should I help them out. We had one person who was unwilling to share nicely and we let them know they could take their toys and leave.
I live on the land full time and take care of it and would have the final say so but so far we have not had any problems or disagreements as to what goes where and how we all do things here. We all seem to be on the same page. We all put in our input and it all works out. Yes we are probably a rare breed of group for sure. I think we know this and appreciate each other that much more because of it.
We have pull behind camper trailers for each family so they have some privacy as well as my home and a community building. The community building stores most of the preps, canning kitchen, shower, composting toilet, and more. We have multiple back up systems to do everything. A well, a hand pump, a creek, rainwater harvesting, etcetc for each system food, water, guns, cooking, medical, etc. two is one and one is none attitude.
So far so good always looking for new members but we are weary and we try to sort people out to be safe and sure everyone agrees on that person. So far no issues have arisen. Call us lucky or blessed.

[1Admin]

It's a good read. Many will think that sort of thing is too "touchy feeley" for our purposes but the concepts are the same. If I've "depleted the emotional back account" of a person or the group in general by being a taker, always being selfish, never acting in the group's best interests, etc. then I can expect people to treat me "in kind."

Everybody screws up, it's getting PAST that hump that few seem to be able to figure out how to do. Sweeping it under the rug isn't an option. It takes a lot to say "hell listen I screwed up, I've been selfish, etc." to a group of people. Most folks have too much pride involved that keeps them from making a simple gesture like that that would begin to fix the problem.

I think in a group setting we have to
1. Be able to recognize problems, preferably ahead of time. Yes people do act in patterns.
2. Be able to sit down and reconcile differences.
3. Be sensitive to how we come off to others, not just in the superficial- "He asked me to help dig that ditch and didn't say pretty please with sugar on top!! What a jerk!!" but more importantly how our ACTIONS (or lack thereof) come off to others.

[Cimarron]

Admin-
No apologies needed you were just seeking clarification.

I meant to allude to folks here that state what they would and would not do if things go bad. But how do we really know what we'll do in hypothetical situations? We can make guesses and even make plans but it's also good to keep an open mind and be adaptable. Some times the best made plans can go to crap in a heart beat.

I agree, if someone was in an ESTABLISHED group they should have the mind set to "give as much as you take". Really this should be a no-brain-er but there's those out there that will not get it. If the time ever comes and I get to be in an ESTABLISHED GROUP I believe no one could say, I don't pull my own weight.
I don't take anything without offering something for it, and if I borrow something and break it, I buy another one to replace it.

I like Stephen Covey's work. I did a work-shop on "7habits of highly effective people" in 92' with the department I was in. Where I first learned about "paradigm shift".

[Irish-Tech]

My current group only consists of Family members. I could never see myself turning away other members of the family that actually made it to the location. I have a few friends that i know could add to the group, but i wont invite them because none are serious enough about prepping. Now if SHTF so quick i cant make it to my primary BOL and i have to hunker down. those same friends will become my new group. My biggest problem is that my BOL is 500 miles away and it will be impossible to get there if things happen fast. I monitor the news none stop and could pack up and be on the road in less than hour with everything i need. Just hope its enough. I do plan on moving closer to the BOL but that needs to wait a few years before i can afford to do so.

[610Alpha]

I just listened to this survival pod cast talking about how to start communities (or groups). The lady brought up some interesting ideas that could bring the like minded people together which could lead to a group.

http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/building-community-with-marjory-wildcraft

Using the library or community center to show a movie or have a speaker do a presentation on something that is a part of self reliance or first aid or fill in the _____ that a prepper would be interested in. Obviously use OPSEC if you go this route and obviously don't do a presentation or movie that will completely blow OPSEC. I am sure someone will still say something even though I am saying use common sense. :)

[1Admin]

Cim- the trust and the helping each other within an ESTABLISHED GROUP is an expected part of being a part of a real, functioning group. I thought you were referring to relyng on the help of sheeple. My bad, I read the wrong thing into it. :(

Without a doubt we should rely on others within an ESTABLISHED functioning group for help when need be. However that means we have to already have enough built in the quote "emotional bank account" unquote of others within that group.

If we have spent little time really getting to know others in the group, if we have established ourselves as a "taker" in our mindset, actions and attitudes, we can -and should- expect LITTLE if anything from an established group.

Stephen Covey used the analogy of an "emotional back account" in his book "7 habits of highly effective people." In the group context this means if you are constantly unwilling to bend, don't expect others to also. If you are constantly unwilling to devote some of your time to group activities, work, training, etc. don't expect others to stand on their head when the time is right for you.

No one likes to get the feeling they are being used. Make sure you are paying respect to those that are helping you out.

[rockriver]

great thread.
i have a relative in the mountains... ww2 navy officer getting old and a college agriculture professor. sons and son in laws. are architect, navy officer -primarily helicopters, veterinarian (sp?) water engineer, city manager. g'kids are mostly 20 t0 30. several college athletes. strong conservative Christian family.
all live nearby except one son. houses have large basements looking down on valley. road is twisting narrow 2 lane road easily controlled. the women all cook well, home school, stacks of dehy food left from y2k great wheat to bread cooks.
when there's a project the men all show up and work hard. energetically. proudly.
they are lightly armed.
but this family group is tight. there are no trust issues. all know who the leader is and show respect. ww2 is awesome with a chain saw or running a business.
the community they live in reflect the above traits also.

the relationships have been built over a long time. trust.

[Cimarron]

@ 1Admin

I think it would be a bad idea to rely on compassion of others. There are some that contain very little.
I think that through compassion/kindness that folks would achieve some degree of co-habitation, and cooperation.
A group working together for the benefit of the group. If I don't care about others making it or cannot see the benefits of working together then I have already decided to go it alone.

That's not to say people that try to make a group won't have bumps along the way..there will be.
There may be disagreements and even heated debates but I believe in the end that common sense and compromising will win. Weather it's a close knit group living in a BOL or a small community in the country working together.

In some small way I view the members here already in a group. At least of the same mindset.

And you're right. You are helping folks think ahead, discuss and plan, by having this forum platform.

Why?

[1Admin]

trained with a gruop once or twice A long time ago. They were seroius and trained hard, i missed one or 2 of the meetings and nevr got called back abuot the next ones. i should hav e tooke it more seroius I guess

FB- I think you answered your own question/statement. Not picking on ya but I think your last statement indicates you learned something from the experience.