Discussion of groups

[1Admin]

Agree 110% on human compassion, but are you suggesting we RELAY on that?

Sure tornadoes and hurricanes in various parts of the country usually bring about folks from other- i.e, NON AFFECTED areas of the country to rally to support them. However what about when it's widespread? The box of canned goods people drop off at the Red Cross for flood victims- what if NO RESUPPLY was evident on the horizon? Would that change most people's behaviors? I think so.

I'm all for helping people, if you think about it, this board is ALREADY doing that- how often do you see the "I learned so much here" type posts. Well friends that doesn't mean that info was FREE, it just means you didn't pay for it. Their is a difference. Everything costs.

The difference won't show itself immediately when something large scale happens, as most will assume that the situation is temporary and Red Cross will be showing up soon with hot coffee and blankets. It will be only after a couple weeks that the real long term problems will show themselves. When the reality of the situation hits most of the populace, I think a good deal- did not say "all"- a good deal of the human compassion and helpfulness will disappear.

Your thoughts on this?

[Cimarron]

Wait a minute guys/gals. Can we really say what we will be like after a collapse? Can we honestly say how we will act, what we will say, our decisions and judgements on others?

We sit here in our cozy way of life now, and talk of things in a PAW, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, situation with most of us not comprehending what that life would really be like (including me) . Even our resident Military who served in 3rd world countries and seen the worst depravity of living conditions had at some time in the back of their mind knew, that if things worked out, at some point were going home, to a better life. If there is a collapse we aren't going 'home' our way of life just changed..maybe for a long time.

I would ask each of us to consider not drawing hard lines about how you feel. When things change, sometimes you have to change too. I believe a big part of surviving is being flexible. People will have to learn to adapt They might not be able to go buy a package of 'food' at Walmart but have to go hunt it up them selves. Or they might have to learn to trade something for that food, a skill, a resource some one else needs or what havya. Most of the posts I read here on S&P are very flexible/adaptable folks. You are already looking down the road at a possible life change and are learning, discussing change. living in a "group" could be part of that change.

LD3 mentioned "human nature" and some of the negative aspects of it, and you know what? He's right! There is in our history many examples of if.

But, let's not forget another side of that nature, human compassion. How many times have we seen human compassion toward a neighbor, a friend or relative, or sometimes even a total stranger. There are story upon story of people helping people. I'm not even talking about the USA, or Christians, or us Okies. All over we hear of people helping others. People stuck in a elevator, or snow storm. Coming to fight a house fire, or pick up the pieces after a severe storm. When the SHTF people have, and will ban together and get through bad situations.

Or just stopping to see if you could help that person broke down on the side of the road.

You all know of what I'm talking about. I could easily assume many of you have been on both sides of that situation.

Just some thoughts.

[Bearman202]

This came up on a radio program I listen to a lot. It's a book by Dale Brown, and deals with exactly this sort of thing. Read about it and see what you think.

http://www.megafortress.com/23.htm

[fallout boy]

trained with a gruop once or twice A long time ago. They were seroius and trained hard, i missed one or 2 of the meetings and nevr got called back abuot the next ones. i should hav e tooke it more seroius I guess

[manowar]

i am a person who is comfortable in my own skin, people see me as an interesting person based on the life i have lived and i am comfortable around people, but i does not break my heart if the phone does not ring and i do not have to leave the homestead. i used to spend allot of time alone when i rodeoed and spent alot of time in the desert and mountains,always saw myself as a bug out loner type of guy.
now fast forward the last 10yrs here in canada and my wife, i see myself as a bug in person,especially after reading an article by the alpha rubicons on bugging out vs bugging in.
I now see,and i like how it was put that i will come together with folks after the event has happened, settlers in the early days lived apart but had the town to rely on.
i think the first year or two will be the hardest and most dangerous, survive that and i think you have er licke- the million dollar question is how to initially survive
manowar

[monkeybird]

Benn, you've just written some of my own thoughts. Regardless, you cannot control adult behavior easily. After the PAW the last thing you need is someone so obviously afraid of life! However, I do have hope that some of these folks will suddenly realize they they will die a really horrible death if they don't get with the program.

Spoiled children are living evidence of a society falling apart. I like the belief that children join YOUR FAMILY when they were born. Not the other way around. Parents do not parent, they allow the child to call the shots.

I really don't think I could cope with either of those behaviors, in addition to all the other stress of trying to 'pull it together' and survive.

I've told him they'd be welcome and that they'd have to pull their own weight but with his wife and son's attitude I know there'd be trouble.

That's really between a rock and a hard place. How can you deny you close family members shelter. How do you cope with people in your group behaving that way. How do you cope with people who won't do their part and children who are spoiled and self centered?

[Benn Gleck]

I don't think I can do the group thing. I have trust issues.

I do have a relative who is fully on board with prepping ....... BUT... and I have to watch how I put this because he reads this forum. He has spent a couple of weekends at our BOL and his wife is NOT a prepper to the point she will not cook at our place because she is "afraid" of a gas range! On each of the three weekends they've spent with us they had to drive to town 20 miles so they could get their 10 year old son his chicken tenders from Burger King!?! I love them, they are Christians even to the point of sending their son to a Christian school but the kid is very disrespectful to his parents and I have a hard time minding my tongue. The point of this rant is if I'm having a hard time accepting my relatives family whom I've known for nearly all my life into my BOL how can I accept another person/family?

I've told him they'd be welcome and that they'd have to pull their own weight but with his wife and son's attitude I know there'd be trouble.
I pray about this every night and the only thing I've come up with is to keep plugging away at getting ready .... physically and spiritually.

[Lowdown3]

I think we can see more examples than just Annanias and Sapphira. Their must have been a reason that Paul would state that men should work with their hands, quietly, eat their bread with gladness, etc. And in another verse, if any man should not work, the same should not eat. And let's not forget Paul brought money donated from other churches to the church in Jerusalem. Might have been because of a drought, etc. or it might have been cause they got too many slackbutts!!! LOL

Even in the examples I've seen of groups that were based solely or closely around a NT church type setup, it was clear that like in most organizations the saying about "20% of the people doing 80% of the work" was true there also.

"Human nature" has been kicking us all in the butt since Eve handed Adam the apple :) While it's sometimes easier when everyone is a Believer, sometimes it's not.

[Rmplstlskn]

But in the same token, the "let's vote on everything" deal never works either. Most of those never get off of square 1.

You have to have a leader, without a doubt. He/she should be elected. They do not necessarily have to know everything, and it's perfectly o.k. -even good- that they admit that they don't know everything.

Also, I think both authority and responsibility can get easily lost in committees.

Yes, besides the problem of having/finding/buying VIABLE land, the POWER STRUGGLE always seems to rear its ugly head. We have a local gun club, run by gun owners, that can't even function properly without constant personality battles within the Board of Directors even... So being "conservative" or a "Tea Party" offers little improvement upon government...

Or, everything is "democratic" that "mobacracy" results and NOTHING gets done, or the MAJORITY rules over the MINORITY, right or wrong... So I know of what you describe...

This is why I think it so important to be "yoked together" with those of the same sprirtual BLOOD, with Messiah as the HEAD, but even then I have seen power issues there as well... I don't know the answer to what is a PERFECT "group government," but I tend to believe that the example of Moses and the Israelites is a good basic "Constitution" to form upon... Although Moses was elected by YHWH himself, a strong leader would be needed with a wisely chosen group of Elders/Judges below him. of which the Judges could overule the Leader, or remove the Leader" if power corrupted or wisdom was found lacking. Then each TRIBE (family) would have their leader (Father ideally/ or Mother for divorced families) who would see to their own survival within the group...

But I have not seen such groups, so I take your examples and experience with "other groups" to heart, which is a story of saddness, for it makes the prospect of a workable GROUP seem very unlikely... I can only hope that EXCEPTIONS rise up and become MODELS for others to follow...

As for the New Testament example of "commune-type" community, many assume "if it is in the Bible, it must be right," but it could also just historically tell it like it went down, no doctrine implied... They tried this type of community and it eventually failed, but the example of Annanias and Sapphira was not about "communal living," it was about SWEARING to give a certain OFFERING to YHWH and then try to LIE about it before YHWH and the Congregation. They didn't have to give anything... It was not a TITHE... They could have kept it all... But they COMMITTED something and then took it back, which resulted in swift judgement upon them...

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

I've come to realize the "let's get a bunch of people together and buy land" fantasy is just that- a fantasy.

Yes, it does seem a fantasy... And I am prone to DREAM above the reality, but I still always hold out hope... For I have seen in the past "miraculous" provisions arrive JUST IN TIME (not on OUR time), but not at the "buy land for a retreat" level... But I do believe, in faith, that our Father WILL PROVIDE for His Children, His Son's Bride, in the bad days that Scripture describes, in a miraculous, can only come from Him, way... I also believe Scripture when it shows us that the FIRST Exodus was to be an ensample for those who will go through the SECOND Exodus, the one so GREAT that conversation will be to those who went through that one rather than the ones who left Egypt... So it must be something impressive...

This is why the Festival of YHWH, called Sukkot (Tabernacles) is so cool... It's purpose is multifaceted, but a primary thing is that it teaches WILDERNESS SKILLS, for one is to CAMP OUT for 8 days. And to learn how to camp PROPERLY, for it says that YHWH will walk through the CAMP, so one had better have a LATRINE OUTSIDE the camp and the camp CLEAN... But I digresss... back to the point...

If many of us believe themselves to be "Children of Light," and we know Scripture TEACHES preparedness and survival, then we also BELIEVE that YHWH will open doors to His Children when it is time... And it may not be time yet... And what I THINK would be cool (covenant communities) maybe be far from what the Father intends... But I know as long as I keep prepping, keep learning, keep getting into better shape, keep fellowshipping, and above all, keep close to my Elohim (God), then I will be where I am supposed to be when the time comes, and I will see the provisions manifest themselves as He wills...

I see others have also posted how futile it would be to try to survive what may soon be coming without GROUP load-bearing, so I think many of us agree that some form of GROUP is a good thing, but making it WORK seems to be the issue (where the FLESH man often overpowers the SPIRIT man)...

Rmpl

[Lowdown3]

MB- thanks. But I'm more the "bubba" than the seal ;)

Well it's not that if someone has more experience or more training than you, that means you have to shut up and not offer input. That's not the case. I've found only one group run in a manner that I would remotely call "autocratic."

But in the same token, the "let's vote on everything" deal never works either. Most of those never get off of square 1.

You have to have a leader, without a doubt. He/she should be elected. They do not necessarily have to know everything, and it's perfectly o.k. -even good- that they admit that they don't know everything.

Also, I think both authority and responsibility can get easily lost in committees. The wife and I always joke "let's bring that up to the toilet paper committee." Even with two people, the ability to pass the buck and or the failure to act because they wanted to be sure 100% of everyone thought it was a good idea (good luck with that) is there.

Above all a leader should be flexible where possible. Stuff's gonna happen, someone is always gonna throw a monkey in the wrench, plans will change. You have to be able to flow with it. That doesn't mean things aren't organized, plans aren't made, etc. It just means stuff happens and sometimes you have to "happen" with it.

As to the question of whether the landowner should somehow automatically become the group leader. That's a hard one.

To be honest, most of the people I've met that have actually bought land, set up a retreat, started living it, etc. are the types that would make good leaders. Why? Because it takes someone who is willing to step outside the box, move past fears of leaving an area they know, changing jobs, schools, lifestyles, etc. Now that doesn't mean that anybody with some land would make a good leader though.

While the possibility is there for a landowner to "lord over" people, it rarely happens from what I've seen. More times than not they are the ones getting the blunt of the crap. From 20 something wives pitching fits and instigating trouble because they've watched too much reality TV and think that's how life really is, to having a home partially burned down and then having the person change the story to avoid any responsibility in the action.

And I understand what you mean with the last statement. And you don't seem like the person who would do this that way, but it's worth mentioning for others.

I'd certainly want to know his abilities and be able to trust his judgement and then question him at every turn.

Their are certain things that should be "questioned" without a doubt. However this can easily go too far.

I remember at a hunting camp I was a part of one time, we were adding a firewood shed to the place. Now in truth this hunting camp might have proven to be used as a BOL later so in the back of my mind I was always thinking SHTF use and most of the others using the hunting camp were also. So the guy that owned the place wanted the firewood shed in a certain spot, roughly 25 yards away from the house. The house was an old wood framed house. One fellow, despite the fact that he didn't own crap started arguing for the firewood shed to be put right next to -actually touching- the house. The fellows real reason for wanting it there- he was flippin LAZY and didn't want to walk a couple yards over. He made quite a stink about it, and more than a few were ready to give in to him just cause of his crybabying. The shed was a semi permanent thing, did the guy that actually ended up "leaving" the hunting lease have any right to be such an arse about it's location? Nope, none whatsoever. His feelings were taken into consideration but common sense in that having 3 cords of wood right next to a wood framed house would not be a good idea for WILDFIRES plus the insect considerations weren't thought of at all.

See we often think in our own perspective, what's good for me, what makes sense to me, etc. However their is often a "bigger picture" that sometimes folks don't see or haven't thought about. To be honest I've been to a pile of retreats, probably close to 2 dozen, I mean real retreats. Maybe 2 of them seem to have thought out anything in relation to security. Most everything was thought out and laid out for convenience, aesthetics, etc. Those things are important but the first and foremost consideration a survival retreat should follow is security IMO.

Also, their is a right way and a wrong way to "question him" IMO.

The right way might sound like this-

"Hey Bill, I listen to what you said about the food plots at the hunting camp when you talked to everyone. I wanted to talk to you privately about that. Is their any reason why we aren't using buckwheat instead of rye grass?"

The wrong way might be-

"Bill, we are all here in this meeting discussing feed plots and you think we need to use buckwheat? Why? Where the hell did you come with that info? I have a friend's cousin's next door neighbor's aunt that has lived in New York City his whole life, he said we should use rye grass here at our retreat in southern Idaho. Your wrong and your gonna screw everything up for everyone."

LOL, a little over the top yes?

We all want to be right, but we should seek to get together, find out the motivations, reasoning behind someone thinking a certain way. Some people will think of things that you didn't. We don't all have "all the answers", but the attitude should be- "we can find the answers together."

Just my ramblings.

[monkeybird]

The land owner is usually the leader, for good or bad! As an example, I believe your abilities and knowledge to be real. (i.e. not just forum talent) Were you to form a group of people, would you automatically be the leader? Suppose group members contributed more in equipment and supplies than the value of the land. I guess what I'm getting at is that those who agree to be a member of the landowner's group will be subject to the owners rules.

If in my fantasy, if a group of team 6 seals as me to be a member of their survival group, I shut up and do what ever they told me to do to survive. If bubba ask me to be a group member I'd certainly want to know his abilities and be able to trust his judgement and then question him at every turn.

[protus]

well what if they have "massive preps " LD ;) LOL
this thread is getting some good and varied outlooks on groups.

[Lowdown3]

I've met groups throughout the U.S. both real, long time group, those just getting started and some of which never get past what I call the "beer and pizza" stage. I.e, get together with a couple buds over beer and pizza and talk about doing stuff that never gets done.

Anywhoo, in all those examples- and it's "more than a few"- I've only found ONE group that made the "everyone pitch in and buy land" deal work. And this was essentially a pretty tight knit church group of 30 years that bought land.

I'm not saying I am rich, rolling it, etc. but you'll find that the vast majority of folks preparing out there are NOT rich. I think because I seem to have a lot people ASSume I'm rich. Not the case, just have the benefit of a lot of TIME involved and doing a little at a time REGULARLY over time does build up. In 25 years of preparing their has been maybe 4-5 years where we made more than $30K a year.

So between the lack of long term trust and then the fact that it's hard enough to get $25. towards targets and training materials from like minded people, let alone get them to go in $20K on some land, I've come to realize the "let's get a bunch of people together and buy land" fantasy is just that- a fantasy. As I said, one group made it work, but truly this is an extraordinary group and I'm sure they had their problems as everyone else does.

What's more common is that one member will have some land and will invite other group members to come to his place. That can work but it also is rife with problems.

And for the talk of people getting ripped off, I've found in the examples of people actually doing this that I have found, that 9 times out of 10, it's the property owner that gets the short end of the stick. Truly they have "more to lose" than the person that stashes 9 buckets there as an "insurance policy."

[monkeybird]

How does one "enrich themself" in a survival group? Not picking on you MB, just wanting to hear more about this.

The survival movement has grown significantly, particularly in the last few years. It would not take much to play on peoples fears or insecurities in order to get money out of them. All one has to do is look at some of the ads for survival related material.

Any group should be entered into after much thought and investigation. Just paying $$ every month and letting someone else decide how the money is spent is just plain stupid. Obviously here are people who would like to do just that, but I wonder just how much of a group they would have.

For any group to work all must contribute and be aware of the finances. Every individual (not family) should pay a share for the BOL, and every person should be on the deed. Monthly maintenance fees should be paid so that the BOL is maintained. Large purchases should be discussed by the entire adult group, with each person being assessed their share in the purchase of the item.

The group should have elected leaders, which changes every few years. (yes I know, it sounds like a government). The treasurer should be elected and books kept. The books MUST be audited regularly.

Groups should have rules and regulations. These should be fair and open to the entire group discussion. Anyone wanting to join an existing group must sign as to their willingness to follow them.

Work responsibilities must be assigned to everyone. Period.

Yes, money does change a relationship. But that's a good thing. Money is collected prior to being spent!

Communes do not work and never have unless it's a dictatorship. Group members should be accountable for building their own shelters or family can live as units.

Just my thoughts.