Food Rations

[goatlady]

The problem with eating most weeds is not so much the flavor, but from my observations, most folks don't eat many green leafy veggies to start with normally. Sauted lamb's quarters taste a lot like young spinach but better, but if you do not like/eat spinach you are out of luck. Steamed or slighly simmered young nettles have a wonder flavor with a pinch of sugar, butter, salt and pepper, but again, if you are not a leafy green person you will not like any weed "veggie."

Javin, I think most WOMEN preppers are well aware of nutrition and balance. After all we are the providers of all meals in the majority of homes and responsible for the health of the household. We also are aware that using beans and rice or corn in the correct proportions will provide a more digestable protein for the body than a slab of meat and with the addition of a harvested leafy green veggie there is a good balance. Hence, the prepper's saying - Store what you eat and eat what you store - cause we need to be able to do our homesteading work every day now with sufficient calorie intake/balanced meals to keep healthy and working. Men seem to count calories, women seem to look at a meal as a whole from a nutrition point. Just my experience and observations.

[Javin]

Sorry about the rambling post last night, I was half into a bottle of scotch. But I would like to point out my impeccable punctuation.

That appology aside, I also appologize in advance for the length of this post. I will not be offended by TL/DR replies. :)

Javin, I think most WOMEN preppers are well aware of nutrition and balance. After all we are the providers of all meals in the majority of homes and responsible for the health of the household.

Interesting idea. Quite possibly you've hit the nail on the head. As the cook in my own household, it's true that I focus much more on the balance of the food than on the calorie count. Counting calories is "easy" and it seems easy to understand, so that's why many people prefer to use the method. Unfortunately, it's also been proven wrong with numerous clinical studies. Those of us (count me in with the women ;) that do the cooking will eventually notice (I would think at least even on a subconscious level) that different foods produce different results, even when the calorie counts are identical. This said, PilloTox (the non-cook in the house) still finds herself reverting to counting calories when she wants to diet, even though she knows it's not really a realistic system. But it's easy.

So Javin what do you suggest doing?

When I think "SHTF" emergency storage, I think about a scenario where we can't count on government restructuring itself for years (7+). In my own home, we plan on storing enough beans/rice/peas etc. (20+ year long term storage) for not only our own family, but for a number of the neighbors. We figure we have to assume that we won't get away with simply locking our doors and keeping the lights off in this situation, so having some extra to give to the community will hopefully placate people enough to leave us alone. We will also have a hidden room in the house with our personal storage. Call me paranoid, but I've seen how we monkeys act when nobody's around to tell us what to do.

The amount of beans/rice/peas/etc. that we will have in storage will be far more than enough "calories" but does not constitute a balanced diet. We will also be storing large amounts of honey (local stuff, not the crap in the stores that they can legally add corn syrup to to bulk it up, then sell it as "100% pure"), ghee, lard, vitamins (not multivitamins, but individual vitamins so they can be properly ground and mixed with the appropriate foods), fiber supplements, etc. etc. etc... The intent is to get through the first year or two on a less than ideal diet until gardens, bee hives, etc. can be established. Still haven't found an "easy" answer for the chicken problem, though. I can't just assume that someone will have chickens available for purchase after the fact.

This concept that red meat or cholesterol is bad for us is also a horrible wive's tale that was started in the 1850's by a "doctor" (keep in mind, these are the same people that thought electroshock therapy was a good idea) who found cholesterol plaquing in patients that had died of heart disease. His notes were later written into a paper in the American Journal of Medicine in 1950 by two doctors, and this was later picked up by the vegetarian Ansel Keys and published in the first "health food" book in 1953. Since then, we've just sheepishly followed along with this "grains good, fat bad" mentality which is directly responsible for the skyrocket in obesity, diabetes, heart disease, strokes, autism, ADHD, etc. etc. etc. (I can show you at a chemical level why this happens for each disease mentioned. I'm not just some conspiracy nutter here.)

This said, our cholesterol intake in the U.S. is already entirely too low. (Forcibly lowering your cholesterol, either through diet or medication will kill you. Cholesterol is a necessary repair mechanism. Lowering your cholesterol because it's high is like lowering your white blood cell count because you have an infection. Start here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0112130653.htm)

Our current diet should consist of more red meats, and more meat in general. Preferably eaten more rare. (Think of how the French consume meat: in many cases raw. They also have among the lowest rates of heart disease. The idea that it's because they drink wine is asinine. Again, I can explain WHY raw meat is good for you, there's no such explanation for the wine theory. The levels/types of antioxidants gained from red wine pale in comparison to the amount gained by just eating an apple.) We also need significantly more cholesterol than even our forefathers ate. As we "modernize" we bombard our system with significantly more free radicals and need the cholesterol to repair the damage.

Additionally, our sugar intake (since 1978, when the Government that subsidizes corn and wheat developed a food pyramid telling us to eat more corn and wheat) is entirely too high. Not just the sugars in sodas (which are almost single-handedly responsible for strokes/heart attacks due to the fructose turning into uric acid, raising your blood plasma acidity level, and damaging the cell walls in the first place, which in turn raises your cholesterol to attempt to repair the damage, etc. etc. etc.) but the sugars from processed grains, even whole grains, cause significant spikes in blood sugars, which leads to obesity, and eventually, diabetes. Check the glycemic load and vitamin listing of a snickers bar, then check the same for a bowl of shredded wheat (even BEFORE you add the milk). You should be shocked to find that two snicker's bars are actually HEALTHIER for you in EVERY WAY than a bowl of shredded wheat is. This isn't to say I recommend snicker's for breakfast, just that cereal is horrible for you.

All of this said, to answer the question of "what do I recommend we do" I recommend that we consume bacon and eggs for breakfast. Increase our meat intake (especially organ meats), and increase our fresh fruit and vegetable intake. ELIMINATE sodas and extra sugar, and avoid breads/processed grains. (Basically, any carb/starch that's ground up significantly increases the surface area, which causes the sugar release to skyrocket.) Note that I said "avoid", not "eliminate." The bread on a burger isn't bad for you. You DO need SOME starches and sugars. However a pile of mashed potatoes is little different than a pile of sugar. Same could be said for a plate of spaghetti rounded out with some garlic bread. The worse case scenario is when you consume the fats and breads in large quantities at the same time. Specifically: Pizza. As much as it pains me to say it (so much so that I do still occasionally "cheat" and order some) Pizza is one of the worst things you can eat.

Foods in the long-term-storage arena (except for beans) tend to be high in starches, but low in vitamins. Even dehydrated or freeze dried fruits lose the vast majority of the nutrients to the point that you may as well take a fiber pill and a spoon full of sugar and call it a day. Dried meats tend to be too high in sodium and too low in vitamins. Nobody dries and stores organ meats either (mostly because we've quit eating them), which even further reduces the balance of vitamins and minerals we should be consuming. Thus the "eat what you store" idea isn't necessarily a good one. I'd rather be a peak health when SHTF and get the cruds for a day than already be gearing up for a heart attack.

Understanding how vitamins work, and the best way to consume those vitamins becomes very important after the fact. Popping a pill doesn't help you, but if you mix your crushed up fat soluble (such as vitamin E) vitamins with your fatty food AFTER it's been cooked and cooled down, you will absorb roughly 10x as much of the vitamin. Understanding vitamin combinations is also important. Phosphorus is useless without Calcium, and vice versa. Unfortunately I've yet to find a "one stop shop" that has all of this information in a single book or publication, so I'm still researching finding little tid-bits as I go along. It also doesn't help that most of what we "know" about health is simply wrong, based on an antiquated hypothesis that has been disproven with numerous clinical studies.

If you're like me, you simply don't have time (maybe too much time buried in the research?) to keep a garden, and I've never attempted to raise chickens. I still get the bulk of my food from the convenience of a store. However, it's possible to live this lifestyle AND be a "prepper" with the proper knowledge. The two are not mutually exclusive. Grow a very small, low maintenance garden for a season every now and then so you understand the process and can scale it up if need be. Know how to set rabbit snares, and even clean and cook a rabbit. Also understand that it's possible to starve to death eating nothing but rabbit (it's actually called "rabbit starvation"). You can read about it all day long, but unless you physically do this a few times you'll muck it up when it's important. In a SHTF situation, it's far better to be a "Jack of all trades, master of none" than to master any one thing. My garden may not be beautiful, but it will be functional. My hunting/trapping may be clumsy, but I know it works, and can get us by.

And I should probably keep some chickens.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Interesting, thanks!

[Klayton]

@Javin:

Well maybe my old memory banks are not what they use to be, or perhaps my two jobs are really effecting that spark process up there, but here is what I can pull from my old grey matter.

You do NOT have to eat fat to absorb Vitamin E. Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin yes, but this means that it is ABSORBED and maintained in our body fat for longer storage, as compared to Vitamin C being a water soluble vitamin that we piss out any extra we intake that day and our body easily runs out of Vitamin C without routine intake of it (read Scurvy,,,arr matey,,, lol couldn't resist that part).

Yes, cholesterol is important, but you did not mention that our own body, our liver precisely, creates body cholesterol every day, mostly at night (which is why hypolipidemics::lower cholesterol meds::are to be taken at night). We get usually less than half (healthy eating people) of our cholesterol from food intake. You are correct that cholesterol is important, actually its a matter of life and death. We use cholesterol for cell membrane production.

I am hoping my prepper buddies out there DO KNOW about calorie count vs necessary diet requirements.
Rabbit starvation for example is caused by NO (or almost zero) animal fat in your diet. Guessing veggie people get around this with that Soy stuff (YUCK). But our bodies NEED FAT!! It is why our maker has blessed us with a tongue that can EASILY detect fat items and fat free items, LOL.

Basic diet requirements:
Protein (broken down to amino acids and used as such)
Fat (cell maintenance and production)
Carbohydrates YES CARBOHYDRATES!! (our body's first source of energy)
Fiber (keep that old intestines working properly)
Calories, did he say calories? yes I did

The fact of the matter is this, a 600LB fatty can be malnourished.
Twinkies have a TON of calories, but almost NO nutrition value.
A rabbit is a great source of protein, but a crappy source of animal fat.

Your intelligence is what makes or break you as a prepper. So don't go 100% from eating out every meal and expect your body to happily accept the diet change day one to full blown rice and beans, beans and rice.

Be smart, and stay alive.
Forgive me if I went off track or omitted any key points (I am falling asleep at keyboard)...
What was that commercial Matt? OH YEAH,,,, "Its time to make the doughnuts..."

[goatlady]

"Grow a very small, low maintenance garden for a season every now and then so you understand the process and can scale it up if need be." Sounds really good - in theory! I've been gardening extensively intensively for 30+ years, Javin, and have learned theory does NOT put food on the table and in the pantry. There is no way to predict or control the weather and/or the insects. To be able to feed one's self even partially from a garden takes 1st of all a continuing source of nutrients to replenish the soil one is gardening in - think compost piles which = animals and bedding. Then one must have adequate seed plus the knowledge of when to plant that seed for optimal return PLUS seed in reserve for crop failures plus the knowledge and experience to be able to harvest and save one's own produced seed. Then one must have the equipment and skills to be able to preserve the harvest, at the proper times, for use through the year which also means knowing how much of what is needed to be preserved, as in how many pounds of green beans = how many quarts = how many meals. Serious prepper gardeners try to have 2 years of food home preserved on the shelf to cover crop failures, bad weather, etc. That means having most usually 100s of canning jars, pressure canners (pleural cause it takes lots of hours to do canning) plus LOTS of jar lids. Having a low maintainence garden every now and then just ain't gonna hack it long term. Do you have on hand the tillers or tractor to break new ground for when you want to ramp up production? Gas/disel properly stored for that for many seasons? Much better to have all that garden pretty much in place NOW so as to have 1 less thing to have to be working on that 1st year of chaos. Trying to get chickens AFTER THE SHTF will be fruitless. Do you know the basic food requirements for chickens to be able to consistently produce eggs? Do you have housing ready for them, i.e. boards, roofing, fencing? Do you have a year's food set aside for them to keep them going until your expanded garden can produce the appropriate food for them? You're on the right track, guy, but it's getting close to the time to put all that research and theory into practice now when your life does not depend on the results. Make your mistakes now while there is time to rectify them.

[Javin]

You do NOT have to eat fat to absorb Vitamin E. Vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamin yes, but this means that it is ABSORBED and maintained in our body fat for longer storage, as compared to Vitamin C being a water soluble vitamin that we piss out any extra we intake that day and our body easily runs out of Vitamin C without routine intake of it

I will have to respectfully disagree. Vitamin E is an antioxidant (read: molecule carrying an extra electron) wherein one of its primary functions is to negate radicals as they pass through the cell walls. While there are numerous antioxidants in the body, they all work in one of three basic ways. Water based, Fat based, and Plasma based. The fat based antioxidants (here, I use Vitamin E as it's our primary) are almost solely found as the defense within the walls of the cells. The water based (vitamin C) are found within the cell itself, while the plasma based (uric acid) is found, funny enough, in the blood plasma. In order for the Vitamin E to be moved through your system it *must* be attached to fat molecules. These are "vehicles" that the Vitamin E (and numerous other minerals and vitamins) use to travel through your system. With no fat to attach to, your body has no way to move that Vitamin E throughout the system. Once in place, Vitamin E also has an interesting function. It recycles itself. After losing an electron to a radical, it can "recharge" itself by pulling an electron from the closely available vitamin C that is in the cell. The "spent" vitamin C then simply passes out through the urine. In fact, fat is SO important for the transport of vitamin E that people with abetalipoproteinemia, a disease that keeps them from being able to produce cholesterol (a dense type of fat) end up vitamin E deficient no matter how many supplements they take. Then, just like those that are eating too little cholesterol and fat today, they see the same neurological and sensory problems that have been on the rise in the typical populace for the past 70 years.

Yes, cholesterol is important, but you did not mention that our own body, our liver precisely, creates body cholesterol every day, mostly at night (which is why hypolipidemics::lower cholesterol meds::are to be taken at night). We get usually less than half (healthy eating people) of our cholesterol from food intake. You are correct that cholesterol is important, actually its a matter of life and death. We use cholesterol for cell membrane production.

Without doing the math, I would not be surprised to find that you're right that CURRENTLY, in our cholesterol starved state, that our body is being forced to produce half of the cholesterol we use. This is not a good thing, even if it's become "the norm". Again, go back to 10 millions of years of evolution where it was completely normal to eat the high cholesterol organ meats, which we eat none of now. Even the intake of eggs has plummeted, dramatically reducing our cholesterol intake. Finally, for cholesterol conversion to occur, the liver needs saturated fats (the building blocks of cholesterol) to make it in the first place. Again, saturated fats have all but been removed from our diets, giving the livers - already trying to work overtime to produce the cholesterol we no longer eat - little in the way of raw materials to work with. At its peak, the liver will produce around 1500 mg of cholesterol in a day. It's happiest when it has to produce less than 800 mg. A single egg can cover 200mg of your body's cholesterol needs, as well as adding a gram or two of saturated fat to your diet. Two or three eggs a day are even better. Add that chicken liver to your diet at a whopping 150+mg per ounce, and you can see where we no longer consume a fraction of the cholesterol we used to. Not even remotely close. The liver has become so over-taxed with our current diets that liver disease (in children especially, since their cholesterol needs are higher than in adults) has skyrocketed since the 1960's as our livers have tried to compensate for the dramatic shift from a 10 million year old diet. And I purposely haven't even gone into the added problems that are caused when you consider that the cholesterol produced by the liver is primarily (if not solely- still haven't found enough research here) the VLDL cholesterols, which is only one of the five types necessary for your body to function. Basically, those that try to argue that the "liver produces all the cholesterol you need" are those that are still desperately clinging to an antiquated and disproven lipid hypothesis.

Your intelligence is what makes or break you as a prepper. So don't go 100% from eating out every meal and expect your body to happily accept the diet change day one to full blown rice and beans, beans and rice.

Here I completely agree. Even eating out every meal you're starving your body of vital nutrients. Since the 1960's, irradiating food has been commonplace in large scale food production. While you do have to mark your products as irradiated, you can skirt these laws by making your foods so they only contain a PERCENTAGE of irradiated foods. However, the easiest way to avoid alarming the public is to sell your food in bulk to restaurants and fast food joints. They don't have to tell you they use irradiated food at all. Even those slices of apple from McDonald's that you think is the healthier option may have been irradiated, destroying the antioxidants and actually raising the radical content of the fruit. One can't even trust "organic" foods from the stores anymore. For instance, honey can completely be sold as "100% pure organic" when it's been bulked up with corn syrup. The regulations on the foods simply aren't strict enough, due to lobbying by those that produce the food en masse. And irradiation is just a minor fraction of the radicals we're consuming. The vast majority (in usage, not bothering to count the "types" that are available... Sodium Benzoate being the most widely used) of food preservatives fall into the "free radical producing" category. Worse still, the FDA requires testing of these preservatives INDIVIDUALLY. So while they know it's okay for x amount of sodium benzoate to be in your food, AND they know it's "okay" for certain levels of sodium nitrite, etc. etc. etc. Multiple preservatives combined in the SAME foods, or eaten in large quantities because it's in EVERY food you consume produces insane amounts of oxygen specfic species (what we call "free radicals") in your system while we consume far too LITTLE antioxidants to combat it. For this exact reason, we've seen a dramatic increase in heart disease and even neruolgical disorders in pets in the veterinary field. Why do you think your dried dog food can sit in the garage for a year without a problem? Yes, I'm aware that antioxidants are also used for preservation, though on a much smaller scale. Unfortunately, antixodants are destroyed when hit by any radical producing agent (light, microwaves, irradiation, other preservatives) and they're already used on a much smaller scale.

I've been gardening extensively intensively for 30+ years, Javin, and have learned theory does NOT put food on the table and in the pantry. There is no way to predict or control the weather and/or the insects. To be able to feed one's self even partially from a garden takes 1st of all a continuing source of nutrients to replenish the soil one is gardening in - think compost piles which = animals and bedding. Then one must have adequate seed plus the knowledge of when to plant that seed for optimal return PLUS seed in reserve for crop failures plus the knowledge and experience to be able to harvest and save one's own produced seed.

Here we're actually in strong agreement. The knowledge here is of the utmost importance. As I said, "...it's possible to live this lifestyle AND be a "prepper" with the proper knowledge. The two are not mutually exclusive." With a small garden, one can get the experience in composting on a small scale. Even experience on putting seeds away for next year. For instance, learning how to make bug traps that can collect tens of thousands of flies that can in turn be rolled into the compost, or fed to the chickens whose feces makes excellent fertilizer. Learning how a dead mouse, or a dead fish buried beneath your food can significantly help production. And of course, learning when to plant the seeds, and how to deal with insect pests is a must. (Of course, no-one can predict the weather. Especially not in a SHTF situation.) But ALL of these things CAN be learned with a small garden and a good amount of research. All of them. If you've got enough food/vitamins/etc. stuffed away for 3-4 years worth, and the knowledge of how to use them, you have nothing but time to work out the little details of keeping a large-scale garden when SHTF so long as you already have the basic knowledge. If anything, do you really want a massive garden the first year to advertise to the neighbors where the food is? Best to keep quiet and let them die off the first year... Sounds cruel, but... My point being, you do NOT need to keep a large scale garden, enough to feed your family, to be a prepper. Some of us DON'T LIKE gardening. We'll do it when we have to, but the time and effort involved in keeping a large garden, for me, is better spent elsewhere.

Then one must have the equipment and skills to be able to preserve the harvest, at the proper times, for use through the year which also means knowing how much of what is needed to be preserved, as in how many pounds of green beans = how many quarts = how many meals. Serious prepper...Having a low maintainence garden every now and then just ain't gonna hack it long term. Do you have on hand the tillers or tractor to break new ground for when you want to ramp up production? Gas/disel properly stored for that for many seasons? Much better to have all that garden pretty much in place NOW so as to have 1 less thing to have to be working on that 1st year of chaos.

Having actually worked on a farm growing up (and a ranch) I have a pretty decent idea of what it takes to turn over the soil and keep a garden growing. If you're needing tractors/tillers/etc. for your garden when it's supposed to produce enough to feed your family (unless you've got a VERY large family) then you're doing something wrong. For a typical family with a mom, dad, 2.5 children, and a goldfish, a garden can very, very easily be maintained by hand. The point of having a small garden is specifically TO get a firm grasp on what the yeilds will look like, understanding that it won't be a 1:1 comparison, but somewhere in the neighborhood. To get an idea of what is necessary to can/preserve those foods, and to gain the knowledge on how to scale that up. With things such as the "Global Buckets" system, this becomes even easier, and growing one or two of each type of plant gives you an idea of how well they would fare in different systems, and are very easily scalable. Sorry, but I'm not going to swallow that you have to have a tractor, spare parts, years worth of gasoline, and several planted acres to be considered a "serious prepper."

Trying to get chickens AFTER THE SHTF will be fruitless. Do you know the basic food requirements for chickens to be able to consistently produce eggs? Do you have housing ready for them, i.e. boards, roofing, fencing? Do you have a year's food set aside for them to keep them going until your expanded garden can produce the appropriate food for them? You're on the right track, guy, but...

Here we're actually in agreement again. As I stated, "I can't just assume that someone will have chickens available for purchase after the fact." and "...I should probably keep some chickens."

I still contend that short of growing all of your own fruits and vegetables, raising your own cattle, pigs, and chickens, and having a fully balanced, organic diet of your own making, the "eat what you store, store what you eat" mentality simply does not work. My current job that allows me to pay the mortgage until the banks collapse prevents me from having that kind of time, or even that kind of land. When it's unrealistic for every American to live completely off the grid, the knowledge of how to prep WITHOUT that sort of time/land at your disposal becomes far more important. This is why I asked the question in another thread of what would be a decent long-term-storage menu selection. It's why I came to this forum in the first place. For the "normal" American, "eat what you store, store what you eat" is not a realistic, viable, or even helpful answer. Nor is "count how many calories you consume per day, and pack that much away." While these may be "simple" answers, they don't hold up in the real world for the average person.

At the simplest level, I eat fresh meat. I eat fresh fruits and vegetables. At the point that these are stored for long-term, they cease to be even remotely as healthy. Thus I cannot "store what I eat." If I cannot "store what I eat" then it follows that I cannot "eat what I store." I cannot raise cattle where I live. I cannot raise pigs. Chickens are probably even pushing it. I currently do not have the land or time to raise a large enough garden to produce all of our own fruits and vegetables. I represent the average American. I do, however, have the requisite knowledge to do all that I mentioned. This knowledge is of little use if my family starves to death in the first year. A year after the SHTF, I will have nothing BUT time, and most likely, land will be abundant. The environment will have changed. When we ask for advice on these forums, giving us such sage tidbits as "eat what you store, store what you eat" as a final answer are not only unhelpful, but condescending.

[goatlady]

My point about tillers, etc, was considering your statement about having a small garden every now and then for experience and then expanding when needing to really produce food. That expansion, to my mind, means breaking new ground which is usually sod of some sort and EXTREMELY difficult to get into growing condition/texture by hand. Also that new expansion soil will in all likelihood not be complete enough nutritionaly to be able to produce optimally. I agree, ONCE a garden is in they ARE easy to MAINTAIN by hand, but putting in a totally new garden area is a whole nother ball game. Also saving VIABLE original strain seed from a small garden doesn't work very well. Just for corn itself, it takes 100 corm plants each year to produce next year's seed that will in turn grown the exact same corn at the same production rate. Those 100 stalks are the bare minimum necessary to keep the genetic of that variety strong and producing. To me 100 corn stalks is not a small garden. As for storing foods, I understand your diet of eating fresh, but I don't understand how you plan to, theoretically, raise a cow, butcher it, have 400 to 600 pounds of meat sitting there and plan to eat it "fresh" before it rots. I eat fresh in season, but if I want mariana sauce on my spagetti in December, I have to can those tomatoes. I also store stuff I cannot produce personally, like salt, and teas, and coffee, and chocolates, and olives. Yes, they will run out eventually, so what. They help avoid food fatigue for a long time. Yes, I do agree with you that you are the average American, no doubt about that. I consider myself the average homestead prepper. Just a difference in lifestyle choices and no condensation ever intended, Javin.

[goatlady]

BTW, the "store what you eat,..." mantra is basically aimed at instructing folks to NOT store foods they do not normally eat in their diets regardless of what the long-term food storage lists say. If one does not eat white rice, it's foolish to store 100# of the stuff cause if you don't eat it now you most likely will not eat it later, so don't waste the time and money. I don't ever eat tuna, so I store salmon instead. It's intended to give beginners some sort of guide in figuing out what they, personally, should consider storing.

[Javin]

My point about tillers, etc, was considering your statement about having a small garden every now and then for experience and then expanding when needing to really produce food. That expansion, to my mind, means breaking new ground which is usually sod of some sort and EXTREMELY difficult to get into growing condition/texture by hand. Also that new expansion soil will in all likelihood not be complete enough nutritionaly to be able to produce optimally.

It looks like we're back to agreeing with each other. :) Hand tilling a garden, especially from sod, is a royal PITA. It can still be done, though. Personally, I'm planning on stockpiling the hell out of some 5 gallon buckets if the "global bucket" design pans out. I also have a plan for a raised garden that uses PVC for a theoretical capiallary fed watering system I'm playing with in my head. (I have three different designs I'm going to try out in the spring.) Unfortunately, in our area nearly all the soil is clay. On the other hand, hey, free clay. But it also means there's plenty of places around (even one major place across the street from the house we're currently looking at) that supply cheap top soil. While not a "long-term" solution, a raised garden can get us through the 7-10 year period.

Also saving VIABLE original strain seed from a small garden doesn't work very well. Just for corn itself, it takes 100 corm plants each year to produce next year's seed that will in turn grown the exact same corn at the same production rate. Those 100 stalks are the bare minimum necessary to keep the genetic of that variety strong and producing. To me 100 corn stalks is not a small garden.

In the past I've managed to keep small amounts of veggies growing from one year to the next with only two to three plants of each type. (In some cases, as few as one plant.) It's possible that I was getting cross pollination from the bees hitting other gardens, but this hasn't seemed a problem in the past. Do you have a site where I could dig around a bit more on the subject? This is the first I've heard of keeping a specific amount of a vegetable to keep the genetic variety going. How does this work with zuchinni (my personal favorite)? Tomatoes? Peppers? Onions? Lettuce? Spinach? Cucumbers? (And so endeth the list of items I plan on starting in the spring...) And while we're on the subject, have you heard about culling the roots of fruit trees to keep them producing fruit? This is another subject I've found only sparse info on.

As for storing foods, I understand your diet of eating fresh, but I don't understand how you plan to, theoretically, raise a cow, butcher it, have 400 to 600 pounds of meat sitting there and plan to eat it "fresh" before it rots. I eat fresh in season, but if I want mariana sauce on my spagetti in December, I have to can those tomatoes.

Here, you're actually posing my own argument. This is precisely why I cannot "store what I eat." I can't raise a cow, much less butcher it. Once the SHTF, I may be able to round a stray one up from the surrounding area (lots of cattle in the area) but I doubt it. More likely the un-prepped locusts will move in and destroy all the livestock long before it's safe to leave the house. This is where the chickens will come into play (and the hunting) for meat purposes. For now, we'll enjoy our steak and porkchops, but when the SHTF we'll be left with game meat, and the occasional chicken. Should I be fortunate enough to bag a large deer or bear, then we have the exact problem you describe. How to keep it from going to waste? I've done significant reading up on various smoking, dehydrating, and preserving techniques, but as you say, it won't be the diet we're currently on. (Our current diet being far more healthy.) So again, eating what I store isn't viable. In the best case scenario, we'll have a functioning generator with plenty of fuel in storage, offset by solar panels, so keeping a freezer running may actually be an option. Just have to hope that S doesn't HTF for the next few years as I don't have the panels OR fuel in storage yet. I have an ugly feeling that I may be overly optimistic there, though. There's also the possibility of creating a Peruvian freezer. (Dig a deep hole, line it with straw, then with clay. During the coldest parts of the winter, put an inch of water in. Once it freezes, add another inch of water. Repeat until hole is solid block of ice, cover with straw and dirt.) Though this would require a colder winter than we typically have in this area. I will also have some modified zeer pots on hand already, though this only provides minimal refrigeration in our humidity (considerably more if we have electricity and can reduce the humidity levels, but that's another discussion).

I also store stuff I cannot produce personally, like salt, and teas, and coffee, and chocolates, and olives. Yes, they will run out eventually, so what. They help avoid food fatigue for a long time.

Funny you mention these specific things, as I've specifically been looking into each of them. If you're inland, you can often find salt sources by tracking the animals. (They need it too.) Some mineral springs tend to be high in salt content. Extracting salt from water isn't a particularly difficult process. For myself, we're close enough to an ocean inlet that we'd likely just take a week's trip to replenish our salt supplies once things steady out. In the meantime, we'll stuff away a few year's worth. I've already been gathering up my tea seed collection (seedrack.com has some great variety, though they're painfully expensive), and I'm not a huge coffee drinker. I have a little Italian guy that runs the deli at my work who's going to hook me up with some fresh olive pits (Note: There's few places in the U.S. olives will happily grow. You'll have to keep the olive tree potted, and move it in and out-doors throughout the year. Only expect enough olives to be a supplemental treat). As for the chocolate, I fear my grand kids may never know the taste. :( Not sure how easily cocoa beans grow in the U.S., or even where you'd get some that weren't already toasted. Could very well be that after cigarettes, and then bullets, cocoa powder could be the next currency!

Yes, I do agree with you that you are the average American, no doubt about that. I consider myself the average homestead prepper. Just a difference in lifestyle choices and no condensation ever intended, Javin.

Fair enough. I look forward to continuing to learn from each other! As you're smack in the middle of the inland (mountains?) it'll be interesting to see how your prepping has to differ from our own.

[Klayton]

Guess I am lucky. I eat on average two eggs every morning for breakfast. :)

Yes I did know about fat transport, but our bodies are not ever 100% absent of fat in our bloodstream. If that was the case they have a cool term for that--- DEAD, :) My point was merely that you do not have to ingest fat the same meal you take your Vit E.

Working two jobs now busting my butt to get some acreage, hopefully before the collapse. :)

[Javin]

Guess I am lucky. I eat on average two eggs every morning for breakfast. :)

And if you're a non-smoker with low sugar intake, I'm willing to bet your cholesterol is nice and low. :)

Yes I did know about fat transport, but our bodies are not ever 100% absent of fat in our bloodstream. If that was the case they have a cool term for that--- DEAD, :) My point was merely that you do not have to ingest fat the same meal you take your Vit E.

Again, I'll have to respectfully disagree. The human body was never designed to send fat out to fetch the Vitamin E from our GI tracts. For 10 million years, the Vitamin E just naturally came along with the fats we consumed. There was no reason to develop this "fetch" system. If the vitamins ride along with the appropriate food type, you absorb them. In pill form, you don't. It's really that simple. I'll quote one of the 800+ clinical studies currently in my bibliography:

Research has shown that Vitamin E supplements consumed at the same time as an ordinary (non low-fat) breakfast cereal had 'inconsistent' effects, but taking vitamin E supplements alone was generally useless: "The 30 international units (IU) of vitamin E in the portion used for the research delivered as much as five times more vitamin E into the participants’ bloodstreams as a 400 IU vitamin E supplement taken alone.

"Professor Maret Traber, one of the study's authors, explained that vitamin E is a fat, and needs to be eaten with other fats in order to be absorbed. Many people take supplements with a low fat breakfast, so benefit little, she noted. The finding may also explain why past research studies done with a vitamin E supplement have had such varied findings. 'The manner in which people took vitamin E supplements and the variation in its bioavailability from person to person have yielded widely inconsistent results about the value of this nutrient in heart disease and other degenerative diseases.'"

"For the body to utilise vitamin E properly adequate levels of vitamin C are also needed."

- (10250) Leonard, SW et al. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2004;79:86-92
- Adam O, Lemmen C, Kless T, Adam P, Denzlinger C, Hailer S. Low fat diet decreases alpha-tocopherol levels, and stimulates LDL oxidation and eicosanoid biosynthesis in man. Eur J Med Res 1995;1:65–71.
- Traber MG. Vitamin E. In: Shils ME, Olson JA, Shike M, Ross AC, eds. Modern nutrition in health and disease. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 1999:347–62.

Working two jobs now busting my butt to get some acreage, hopefully before the collapse. :)

I hear ya. We're going to be lucky to pull off one acre in the next couple of years. I'm hoping to sock away some money for a few dozen acres even if in another state if things can hold out for 4 years or more.

[Patriot Prepper]

I will be 60 years old soon and have not been to a doctor in over thirty years, I do not used any prescription drugs or over the counter products. I do not get sick and do not have any diseases or illnesses. I am in better condition than people decades younger than myself. I rely on natural methods only.

You guys are making this much tougher than it has to be. The facts are as follows:

1. If you really want to insure a food supply, double or triple your calculations to account for any of the food that goes bad. Also keep in mind that you may be forced to leave your retreat. Food should be cached in several hidden locations. If you lose a cache or two, you should have enough food to survive.

2. Make sure you have enormous amounts of the basics, wheat, rice, etc. Stuff that is cheap and lasts a long time. There are dozens of ways to calculate how much you need per person, per day or per year. Then double or triple that amount, as stated, and cache it.

3. The body is adaptable, the stuff you read in places like the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, etc. is inaccurate and outdated, and should not be used. The human body is not a chemical laboratory. The testing methods they use are backwards. Don't put too much emphasis on vitamins. Get healthy now, if you can. I would venture to say that the majority of you have deficiencies today. If you cannot balance them out in our society today, you are not going to balance them out when you are hiding out on your retreat, eating out of cans, fighting Zombies. The body is highly adaptable. If you start eating right, building up your mineral reserves, and you store the right foods, you will live. The body once purified and cleansed is capable of nutritional alchemy, to enable it to create what it needs. If you feed it right.

Nutrition is beyond the understanding of man. I have literally spent years and almost $500,000 chasing the Holy Grail of health, and found there are few real answers. The only answers I did find all point to following a diet that is close to the one that God intended. If you study the diet of the most long lived and healthiest people on the planet, you will discover they did not eat the SAD diet (Standard American Diet). They did not have chemical food supplements, i.e. vitamins, and did not eat out of cans. The program that I prescribe is also the easiest for a prepper to follow.

I started a Health for Preppers video series but did not get too far. Been busy and the subject is a little beyond what I can teach in a video. This video is about Radiation Protection. I hope to find the time to add more videos.

For now, I would say, double and triple the amount of food you calculate needing. Concentrate on the basic inexpensive, long lasting foods, like rice, wheat, legumes, etc. And have several hidden caches. Watch out for Zombies.

Fast, Pray, and Meditate on the word and you will find answers. God has given you a path, discover it, and walk upon it. Get healthy now. Stay well.

[goatlady]

Suzanne Ashworth's SEED TO SEED is pretty much the standard go-to book for open pollinated veggie seed saving.

[BAK]

wow I haven't been online in couple of days and the posts grew from 3 to 30. Thanks for all the replies.
I'm in the medical field so I am aware of the importance of fats, cholesterol and a balanced diet. There are however contradicting studies on vitamin absorption.
Unfortunately right now I can't put in a big garden (no time) but that is in the 5 year plan.
Over all I see one main trend- whatever you have, it's not enough. Get it, pack it, store it and then if/when the time comes worry about figuring out how to ration it

[Klayton]

gonna have to take your word on that Javin, as I have never seen that research you are speaking of, and with my current workload, honestly dont have to do any digging of my own into the data... Thanks for sharing...

And Kudos to you Patriot Prepper, I can only wish I could say I was able to avoid the doctor for so long...

<<I'm telling you, its those little orange pills they made us take for Desert Shield/Storm>>>

"Why oh why did I take the little orange pills." -LOL