Firearms thoughts

[Klayton]

How do you like that 7.62x25 Russian pistol?

[GAGLOCK]

If I had to start fresh with NO FIREARMS here's what I'd get in order:

1. A major caliber CONCEALABLE handgun. 9mm or larger. The weapon you have with you when you need it is the most important one. I prefer semiauto's over revolvers due to larger capacities and longer sight radiuses (thinking snub noses here). You could cover most every need with this (short range self defense, home invasion, game getter). Anything except a major firefight with multiple opponents, or someone shooting at you at distance.

2. CONCEALABLE Folding stock battle carbine. A vehicle weapon you can deploy inside or out that gives you both decent range (200m) and firepower. I have underfolder AK's and a folding Keltec SU-16 that can fit this role. I can CONCEAL either of these in a GHB or BOB if needed.

If you have nothing else - this and a pistol can get you by. Would be a most excellent "get away from me/my car" weapon if one got stuck in the middle of an urban riot aka rodney king riots. Again, the weapon you have with you when you need it...

3. Semi-auto Main Batttle Rifle. I prefer .308 and have M14 and HK91s for this role. but M1 garand would work too. Primarily for home/retreat ACCURATE area defense. Can fulfil the medium range (600m) sniper role as well.

4. Beyond this I'd add a semi-auto .22lr such as 10-22 or Marlin model 60. Fun, cheap training, small game.

5. Then a shotgun with extended magazine capability such as 870 or mossberg 590/500. Best home defence weapon IMO.

6. Very accurate bolt action preferably in same caliber as MBR. Sniper/hunting rifle out to 800m

7. Lighter weight patrol battle carbine. Ak/AR15/SKS/Mini14, etc. For strolling around the neighborhood/retreat.

8. Inexpensive loaner weapons - Mosin Nagants, SKS, etc. Share with your defenseless buds.

Ideally you would minimize the number of calibers to maintain. One way to lessen the cost of this is by reloading. In a pinch .308 projectiles can be used in .308, 30-06, 30-30, 7.62x39, even 7.62x54 in an emergency. A lot cheaper to buy compenents for 2k rounds than to purchase same. Can even cast your own bullets with wheel weights if push comes to shove and you have the molds. Lots of flexibility.

A last thought on firearms. I think it would be smart thinking to have a firearm or two you purchased LEGALLY from a private party. Who knows what will happen in the future... Nuff said on that.

[Klayton]

Great reply GAGLOCK!!

I would just add, make sure your .22 is capable of firing all 3 .22 bullets (S,L,LR). As the shorts make for some awesome no noise (almost) squirrel shots.
Thing to remember when SHTF, when your hunting, dont make the shot unless you can do it with one good clean shot.
1 shot tells others there is a hunter in the area and most likely dead game.
2 shots tells them where you are.
Or just use a bow **wink**

[GAGLOCK]

Great reply GAGLOCK!!

I would just add, make sure your .22 is capable of firing all 3 .22 bullets (S,L,LR). As the shorts make for some awesome no noise (almost) squirrel shots.
Thing to remember when SHTF, when your hunting, dont make the shot unless you can do it with one good clean shot.
1 shot tells others there is a hunter in the area and most likely dead game.
2 shots tells them where you are.
Or just use a bow **wink**

Great points. Silence is golden. I'm gonna check if my 22's will shoot shorts and get some if they do. I'll try some subsonics too to figure out what shoots quiestest in my 22's

A suppressed weapon would be really cool but I want to stay off those kind of lists.

[Crazy Scout Daddy]

How do you like that 7.62x25 Russian pistol?

Don't have that or the 9mm and .40 yet, the key word being yet

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Many great opinions here. I appreciate everyone giving their opinion without the "you are wrong attitude". As many have already said, your battery may depend on many factors. Cost, location, reliability, etc. What about group? What I mean is what is your retreat group using (if you belong to a group). Having the same weapon systems as a group would be beneficial. If I'm an AK guy shooting x39 and my group members are AR guys shooting .223 and my weapon breaks, or we are patrol a firefight happens and I'm out of ammo, well I'm SOL. What about training? If I train with my AK, but never train (or infrequently train) with their AR then if I ever need to pick up one of their weapons and use it, I may be "fumbling" around as muscle memory is just not there. There is something to be said for groups using the same type of weapon systems.

Having said that...
.22 rifle and pistol for low signature hunting. Also, don't poo-poo the .22 rifle to keep people "pinned down". I don't care if "its just a .22", nobody wants to get hit by one. It could keep someone "pinned" while other group members could get into a better position. Better to use up .22 ammo than that valuable .308 or x39. I know there are times this would not be the best option and you would want the bigger round, but just a thought.
.9mm or larger for handgun. I prefer Glock as field stripping is easy and it is reliable.
x39, .308, .223 for MBR I prefer AK for same reason as I gave for Glock.
.308 or similar or better for "reaching out and touching someone". There is a reason the military uses .308, 300 WM and .50cal for this.
20 or 12 guage for home defense.

Of course there are other capable calibers, but they are more "off calibers" meaning not many people use them. So if you are going to use x54r or 8mm, etc, be sure to stock your own.

Just my quick thoughts...YMMV

[eeyore]

Having said that...
.22 rifle and pistol for low signature hunting. Also, don't poo-poo the .22 rifle to keep people "pinned down". I don't care if "its just a .22", nobody wants to get hit by one. It could keep someone "pinned" while other group members could get into a better position. Better to use up .22 ammo than that valuable .308 or x39.

I have heard it postulated that some might use a 22 (or several) firing with spaced shots (making someone believe they were single shots) as a way to draw some in close by making them over confident. Just a thought

[Klayton]

Everybody is making great points! This is GREAT!

Thought I would add another idea, food for thought, who is in your family (group)? My buddy has him, his wife, and 3 princesses. He was bragging about the 10mm's he bought for his survivalist cache. (He also has multiple .45s) So I told him, Dan, what happens if YOU die for whatever reason when SHTF? He first said that is not going to happen. So I overdramatically started twitching my head around while staring at his chest. He was like, what the h@## are you doing? I told him, looking for the BIG 'S' on your chest. He said ok very funny. I told him I was serious, if you die, can you wife and girls fire those overpowered handguns to protect themselves? His facial expression said it all. So I drove the nail home, ya your just setting them up to be rape victims by buying only hi powered handguns. He bought two new 9mm's his next payday. I simply said, thank you man!

[Matt In Oklahoma]

It must be practical, I have no use for pretty but non working or not always working. A concealable handgun as big as you are comforatable with. A shotgun that will put meat on the table as well as smoke zombies. The rifle is the same but it may take a few to fill certain bills such as a .22 for small game, a long distance or heavy hitter depending on where you live and a Close Quarter Combat rifle but it must be capable of again putting meat on the table. I've seen way to many rifles and shooters that can only hit man size targets at 50yds or less lately. (mainly shooters)
I dont see a right or wrong, for myself I have found little to no use for a pistol chambered rifle/carbine or an african game size cartridge. That does not mean someone else has the same needs, so I will not knock you for what you have chosen based on DECISIONS not hype or peer pressure.

[BigJohn]

To have a complete battery, you need a long range rifle for large game and social occasions, a shotgun for birds, and maybe a pistol so you can carry it concealed.

But here's an odd though. You might consider using only a single weapon...like great grandpa did.

If you are on a budget, I suggest you take care of your biggest problems first....that means bad guys. I think an old military magazine rifle (bolt) could suffice as your main weapon for almost all purposes. Of course, it's better if you have a ready supply of good cheap ammunition, so I recommend the Ishapor 2A1, which is an excellent rifle that shoots 7x62 Nato (also .308 win). These rifles take quite a lot of training, so budget for a few hundred rounds to learn the rifle and about 50-100 rounds a year for maintenance training.

If you can't find ammo for your antique, You can buy a few hundred rounds of whatever obscure caliber the rifle uses and lay it aside for emergencies and then buy a "Lee loader", Lead bullet mold and some powder and primers to reload your brass. (Berdan primed casings CAN be reloaded with the right tools). I often shoot .308, and .303 using squib loads and have done the same thing with 7.62x39 and 8mm mauser.

I use 120 grain cast bullets over 5 grains of bullseye (pistol) powder. They exit the muzzle at something like 800 fps and are fairly quiet since they are subsonic. They have about the same punch as a .38 special, which is perfect for bunnies or anything up to coyote size. They cost about 5 cents each and are a hoot to shoot. (Make sure you check out your load on a reliable cast bullet reloading forum or you might end up doing something dangerous. Research this carefully because reduced loads can build over-pressures if you don't load them correctly. Don't take any stupid chances. Reloading is definitely not for everyone.)

Too much trouble? No problem. You can buy a chamber adapter to allow you to shoot .32 auto in some military rifle calibers. I have one for .308 and it sounds like an air rifle. It's not as accurate as well tuned reloads, but very easy and cheap. They shoot well out to about 25 meters, which is brush hunting range. I didn't get mine from these folks, but I have heard that their products are good. http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

If serious trouble ever comes, a military magazine rifle (using stripper clips to reload) is a real weapon capable of serious business from the muzzle out to about 500 meters. With training and practice, you can fire a Lee Enfield very fast. The standard used to be 20 aimed shots per minute (hits on a 10 inch target) at 200 meters. You can sustain that rate of fire until the rifle catches on fire from the heat. You can double that speed for a short string with some practice. You can't do much better than that with a M16.

The Enfield rifles (and most others) have a shroud or guard for the iron sights that makes a dandy night sight if you paint them with luminous paint (or even white out).

Almost any magazine rifle will work in a pinch, but I am partial to the SMLE or No4 Enfields, the Springfield 03 or the German Karbiner-98. Any of these rifles (with a bag full of stripper clips) is pretty much a match for any modern weapon under most conditions.

1. They are powerful! The "mouse-16" has a dismal combat record. The .303 Brit anchors whoever you hit with it. If you need to shoot through a wall, you probably can. Even brick walls can't stand up to sustained gunfire from a full rifle caliber. If you need to make somebody take cover over a kilometer away, you can do it with one of these.

2. They are completely reliable. I have never seen an unmodified military bolt action rifle jam in trained hands. They work if they are dirty or the weather is bad. They are very forgiving of old or bad ammunition.

3. They are cheap. You may be able to buy a whole weapon system for under 300 bucks. I would rather have a Mauser today than a fancy assault rifle someday.

just a though.......

[Klayton]

If you are on a budget, I suggest you take care of your biggest problems first....that means bad guys. I think an old military magazine rifle (bolt) could suffice as your main weapon for almost all purposes.

Maybe it is just me, but I would not have a bolt action as my only long gun, ever.

Semi or atleast a pump action, but never a bolt action for only gun.

Just my two copper pieces...

[Klayton]

OH, if it is because of budget, remember a shotgun can be loaded with slugs, and most people can cycle a pump shotgun in half the time (or less) than they can a bolt.
Remember when SHTF sometime multiple incoming targets may not be an option you can avoid. **wink**

[BigJohn]

Klayton,
I don't choose a bolt as my primary go-to-war rifle either. But if I were on a serious budget and needed a long range weapon, I would at least consider them. An SKS (comparably priced) is ok, but can't compete at longer ranges. A military bolt is not ideal for anything, but it does almost everything moderately well. It has some nice features along with the faults.

Pros:
1. Reliable. Durable. I value reliability above anything else.

2. Cheap

3. Accurate. If they have been maintained, all of them shoot close to MOA. Some of them are tack drivers.

4. Deadly at any range. These weapons typically shoot a 150-170gr bullet at 2300-2800fps. They will kill any North American game reliably. They retain enough energy to kill a human reliably at a kilometer.

5. They reload blazingly fast with stripper clips. If you haven't trained with these, you really should try them. You can leave strippers loaded forever and charge the rifle magazine in a couple of seconds, even in the dark.

6. They FEEEL solid. When I am scared, that means a lot.

Cons:
1. They are slower than an auto. This can be mitigated by training, but not completely. First round speed is roughly the same as a M-16 (even with the greater weight of the weapon). But unfortunately, follow up shots are much slower.

With my Ishapor 2A1, I can consistently hit a E silhouette at 300 meters every 7 seconds....counting reload time. From the standing position, I can get off a string of 13 rounds (a full magazine and one chambered) in 10 seconds and keep them in a E-silhouette at 50 meters or less. I would rather have a AKM inside 100 meters, but I wouldn't feel terribly under-dressed with a SMLE.

2. They are heavy! If you are used to a M4, you will be shocked at the weight. And they still kick like a mule.

3. They are too long to be a good choice for fighting inside a building. They will limit your tactics in a close quarters fight.

4. They will shoot through LOTs of walls. Talk about over-penetration! They don't slow down that much when they hit meat or interior walls. Whether you miss or not, whatever is in the path of the bullet for a couple of hundred meters is going to catch it.

5. They require a lot more training and dedication than a modern assault rifle. The recoil alone requires some getting used to. They don't chamber a round for you. You have to manually chamber each round. There are a lot of techniques to master to get your speed up. Reloading is slow unless you have drilled at it. Fighting well with a magazine rifle requires training.

Check out this link:
http://www.leeenfieldrifleassociation.org.uk /page.php?domain_name=leeenfieldrifleassociation.or g.uk&viewpage=history

[Klayton]

Very true, they are inexpensive long range weapons, that is for sure. =)