KISS theory of firearms- thoughts?

[brokedownbiker]

A couple of recent threads- the Kriss super whatever and the LAR-47- got me to thinking (I know, never a good idea). There are so many whiz-bang super cool choices in firearms out there right now that I cannot help but think that new folks are very confused on what to get and who to listen to.

Myself, I am a proponent of the KISS theory- Keep It Simple Stupid was designed with me in mind according to my ex-wife. All these new, fancy, and sometimes just plain unrealistic guns are just problems waiting to happen, either in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance, availability of replacement parts or poor design. And when we are talking about a tool that our lives will depend on working reliably and effectively, problems are not something I want to face. Like most of the folks here, I have a safe with several different rifles and handguns in it and some of them are unique and special in one way or another (i.e. caliber, type of action, rarity, etc.) but when it comes to my SHTF battery, it consists of 3-4 guns that I know will function- every time, and for a long time; knowledge that I have gained through thousands of rounds and years of practice and familiarity.

Mine are pretty basic-

MBR- either my M4gery or my MAK-90, mostly dependent on where I am when the SHTF

Handgun- Choices range from SA 1911 to Sig P228, Taurus PT145 to Ruger .357, all tested and solid guns

shotgun- Mossberg 500 12 ga.


I know this is nothing new- your thoughts on your preferred battery; but I wanted to show my list to point out the simplicity.

What I'm really interested in are your on the large amount of weird and .... different guns and 'cool' designs and hybrids showing up in the market lately.

[VIPER]

I really like the ksg kel tec shotgun even though its strange in a cool way

[jimmycthemd]

I like the KISS theory. I've looked at, drooled over and dreamed about some of the cool guns out there that are mostly problems waiting for a solution. Like brokedownbiker, I've pretty much got what I need as far as except a MBR:

SA 1911
DW 44mag
Mossberg 500 12GA
Savage .223 bolt action for overwatch

I live in a subdivision so large calibre long guns would be extremely dangerous to my neighbours. If I add a semi-auto MBR, it'll probably be an AR15 clone of some sort. I'm not there yet and don't want to add another set of ammo to stock up on. Whatever I decide on will have to be mainstream and parts/reliability are probably the biggest concern.

[tech]

A "preferred battery?" hehe - all of 'em.

But seriously, not into the whiz-bang get ups. Ever use NV equipment to look at some one with an illuminated reticle? Or watching a Soviet-equipped squad - all lit up in green from their own NV gear? It isn't all it's cracked up to be in real life.

But anyhow...lately I have been looking at some partnerships between hand guns and long guns. For examples, 9mm semi auto pistol and carbine. revolver and lever action carbine (.38/.357) Or a .22 mag revolver and bolt action rifle...Simple, time-tested, effective, using a common shared caliber.

@ jimmycthemd - if you had to shoot through a brick facade to save your neighbors, would a "large caliber" still be dangerous to your neighbors? A .22 will punch through sheetrock or wood siding without much effort - don't think only large calibers have that potential.

[WILL]

People love making fun of hi-tech gun stuff. I'm a believer in it. I employ everything from gun mounted lights and red dot sights with folding BUIS to tritium sights and lasers. If you're overlooking these products because you think they will hinder your effectiveness, you are wrong. Make sure you train with and without them and remember, this is one category where you get exactly what you pay for.

I do agree that having a good solid weapon is a must. My primary fighting rifle is a POF M-4. It's a fairly rare, piston actuated, .223 carbine. I've owned if for about 5 years, and it's proven to be a rock solid, utterly reliable rifle. I trust my life to it. As far as the op's concern of it being a rare off-shoot, maybe so. That said, you'd think rifles were snapping in half all over the place and spare parts were laying on the ground at street corners for AR 15s and AKs. Both assumptions are false. The truth is that I'll probably go a lifetime with this POF, never breaking a single part. Same thing with my Glock pistol and 870 shotgun. I will break down before they do. Just in case, I do have a few basic repair parts though. But let's assume worst case scenario, it's TEOTWAWKI, I've bugged out and my rifle broke. That's just a bad day right there. I find a dead soldier with an AR-15. Wouldn't I just take his gun rather than try to repair mine with his parts?

And FYI, parts aren't as interchangable as you may think. For example, I own two AK-47s. The bolts are NOT interchangable between them, I tried. Maybe with some gunsmithing I could make it work, but I wouldn't trust that Franken-rifle until it was vetted. Go figure.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I really like the ksg kel tec shotgun even though its strange in a cool way

This has me intrigued as well, trying to get my hands on one to give it a go over before deciding.

I dont have any exotics and keep mine fairly simple. There are weapons that get it right as we progress in life and hopefull the one above will be one. The HK416 is one that has it right and fixed many common issues. I remember a day when the Glock was an exotic so dont be too quick to discount all of them

[jimmycthemd]

@ jimmycthemd - if you had to shoot through a brick facade to save your neighbors, would a "large caliber" still be dangerous to your neighbors? A .22 will punch through sheetrock or wood siding without much effort - don't think only large calibers have that potential.

I realize the danger of the .22/.223 going through sheetrock/wood siding. Once they do, they lose a lot of their energy. The main reason I'm sticking with the .223, which I should have stated, is so that my wife and I can share the same caliber. 30 cal's kick WAY too much for her (she's only 4'11"). Again, fewer calibers to maintain and KISS.

And, BTW, I have no problem with those that own the newer, hi-tech weapons. They're just not for me right now. I'm just beginning my preps and don't wanna get caught up with more tactical stuff until I have some other basics covered. Hope that makes sense.

[Grand58742]

I think the piston operated ARs were, at one point, in a "exotic off-shoot" class. But since they first came out and went somewhat mainstream, they have established themselves as a viable class of their own. Problem with them is the lack of standardization between the types. I.E. POF uses a different version of a piston than H&K. The Adcor gas system is different than a LWRC. So on and so forth. So while the piston driven AR platform is established itself, the problem comes from standardization. Hopefully the ICC (if a piston comes out on top of the Improved M4 and is adopted...not holding my breath) will establish a baseline standard for piston ARs like the TDP for M4s is now. And that's still over a year away. But overall, the DGI on all ARs is the same (for the most part...carbine, mid and rifle length gas systems being the notable exception) and swapping parts between the two doesn't require proprietary parts like the pistons.

And cost is the other issue with piston systems since the craze started with the H&K being adopted by SFOD-D a few years back and drove the prices up on anything with a piston system. Most complete rifles start at around $1200 and move up from there, making them unattractive when compared to a $850 Windham or a $1000 Colt. It's not that they are rare, it's the price tag that scares a lot of folks away except serious shooters with a budget to spend on an upper end rifle.

I think the Kel Tec KSG is neat and a novel concept, but it's pretty much vaporware for the most part. I believe it racks up somewhere between unicorns and Bill Clinton's integrity when it comes to availability. Kel Tec is bad about that. Get folks excited about a new design (the PMR-30 and RFB come immediately to mind) and start the talking way before production even starts. And as estimated shipping dates slip further and further back, interest wanes and when you finally do release it, your production can't keep up with demand anyway. I think they are finely engineered weapons, but they just can't keep up with demand in a timely fashion. And the KSG is no different since you can hardly find it.

But for oddities in my own stable...

I have an Adcor BEAR Elite piston AR (if we are putting piston ARs into this class), a Tokarev TT-33 (Polish copy) in 7.62x25 and a CZ-82 in 9x18mm. Not entirely out of the ordinary, but unusual enough to be different than mainstream. Otherwise my arsenal is fairly standard caliber wise and my go to battery would go like this:

Palmetto/Bushmaster Frankengun AR in 5.56mm
Sig P226 or P229 in 9mm
Winchester Defender in 20 gauge (I thought I was a considerate neighbor until I found out shotguns were far worse in drywall than 5.56)
Savage Mark II in .22 LR

[brokedownbiker]

I really don't put the piston Ar's into the 'whiz-bang" category, and as far as all the high-tech add-ons available for the AR and other platforms- to each his own as long as they work for you.

I was talking more about strange things that seem to be cropping up lately; i.e. the Kriss Super V, the new LAR-47 (an answer looking for a problem), Arsenal's Model 2011 (the double 1911), that sort of thing.

Not all of the strange ones have faded back into obscurity; some of the new, maybe odd designs that have come along have turned out to be workable guns, like the Saiga idea of using the AK design but building it to fire shotgun shells- outside the box thinking but reasonable successful, the Kel-Tec KSG shotgun ( if it really exists; I hear they are using unicorns to deliver them).

Grand, I can't believe I left my good old Mark I off my list, thanks for reminding me! It is one of my favorite handguns and rock solid dependable. I actually have two, one tapered 4.75"barrel and one bull barreled.

[rice paddy daddy]

KISS? You're talking to a guy that likes lever action 30-30's, 1911's in 45 ACP, revolvers in 357 and 44 magnum.
My "battle rifles" are exactly that - military surplus or clones (M1A).
I do own one 9MM - Walther P1; and one .223 - Ruger Mini 14.
Only my hunting rifles have scopes.
"My name is Rice, and I'm a Luddite" :cool:

[1Admin]

The one thing a lot of new preppers don't consider is COMMONALITY and LOGISTICS.

Why don't you rush out and buy the latest hybrid clone of an AR with AK reliability, HK sights and lightweight construction like a Glock? Cause it probably hasn't been really proven yet, because at $3K price tag you can bet their isn't a lot of them out on the market and because parts and mags are probably scarce and/or pricey.

Having the latest/greatest is fine for the COLLECTOR and casual shooter IMO, but not always the best bet for the person who has weapons for survival.

I get a lot of guys "Rob have you seen the new blah blah blah model?" Nope sure haven't. Then I get the sideways glances like "I thought this guy was a shooter?"

I don't have a lot of guns anymore, but I have a lot of the same types of guns that work. The wife doesn't have to try to remember that "this particular rifle functions in this manner" which is different than the others. The M1A functions almost the same as the AK's (safety being only difference). Under stress this may mean quite a bit.

[610Alpha]

Under stress this may mean quite a bit.

I was mentioning shooting under stress to a coworker the other day and she was like "I perform best under stress" yet she has never served in the military, has not been a LEO, and has never fired her handgun. She said she would just keep shooting until they dropped...or she ran out of ammo and got her weapon taken away from her. She did admit that she needed to go to the range....I said under stress you will forget how to turn off the safety unless you practice under stress.

[WiseOwl]

I implement the K.I.S.S. philosophy with everything I do.

As for firearms, I did extensive research before I made my purchases because when you pinch pennies, you gotta be smart.

.22
12 Gauge

are my two main, I think with these 2 calibers I can do just about anything I need to or WILL need to.

Then my .40 which has a tad bit of punch


Chose the .308 over the 223 or 7.62x39.....


With these 4 calibers I am set...............in my mind at least.

[Bama]

I akso try to KISS ,sticking with common calibers. It depends on where I am as to what I carry. My ccw is a taraus pt145. If I am at home I carry a smith & wesson .357 mag. I practice shooting my .357 at 50 & 100 yards regularly and am proficient enough with it to take out a wild hog or coyotee at range. But it is not easly concealed. I have several .22 rifles, .308, 12 gauge, and 7.62 x 39, I use each of them in diffrent situations.

[JUSTIFIED]

The one thing a lot of new preppers don't consider is COMMONALITY and LOGISTICS.

Why don't you rush out and buy the latest hybrid clone of an AR with AK reliability, HK sights and lightweight construction like a Glock? Cause it probably hasn't been really proven yet, because at $3K price tag you can bet their isn't a lot of them out on the market and because parts and mags are probably scarce and/or pricey.

Having the latest/greatest is fine for the COLLECTOR and casual shooter IMO, but not always the best bet for the person who has weapons for survival.

I get a lot of guys "Rob have you seen the new blah blah blah model?" Nope sure haven't. Then I get the sideways glances like "I thought this guy was a shooter?"

I don't have a lot of guns anymore, but I have a lot of the same types of guns that work. The wife doesn't have to try to remember that "this particular rifle functions in this manner" which is different than the others. The M1A functions almost the same as the AK's (safety being only difference). Under stress this may mean quite a bit.

Lot's of interesting and "make you think" comments. I'm not a gun expert but I agree with Admin. about having the same types of guns. I've got 2 .22 revolvers, 2 S&W .38 revolvers and a S&W .357 revolver that takes .38 ammo, a marlin .270 4+1, a Stephens .410 and a breakover pellet gun. I've got a variety of guns but the .22 and .38 ammo are easy to find and not overly expensive and if one gun breaks I've got another that takes the same ammo. Keeping my eyes open for another .38 revolver. Lots of neat guns for those that have the money to spend and are more into guns than I am but I tend to stick with more basic models.

Question: I'm not worried about what's easier to carry or conceal though I think semi autos are better in that category. What are the thoughts on advantages of a revolver over a semi auto, or visa versa, reliability, etc...? Maybe there's no advantage and I should simply look at individual gun history?