Questions

[Doc]

I do appreciate all of the knowledge that is available on this site. It gives me the chance to learn from others mistakes or successes.
So I have more questions. This time it is about weapon choices. After reading one of the other posts I have chosen not to add another 22lr to my arsenal at this time. I am looking for something that my wife and children could be comfortable with shooting if they had to. Plus I want them to train with it. If it is not fun to shoot then training wont last long.
So my first question is in regards to 20 gauge shot guns. I have a single shot 12. This is way too much power for either my wife or kids. The wife can shoot it but does not like it. So what are peoples thoughts on the 20 gauge. There are lot of different factors to think of. Does it have enough stopping power? How common are the rounds? and I am sure others will come up with questions that I have not even thought of.
The next question is in regards to a MBR. I have been looking at 223 rounds. A lot of people recommend a 308. I am not against that idea, but would like to start swaging bullets in the future. I like the idea of being able to use the spent 22lr cases for bullet casings. Not a great reason, and would love others input. Another reason is the kick. I have not shot a 223 yet, but am assuming that the kick is not too bad. I have a 270 win hunting rifle and it is too heavy a kick for the family. Is there much difference in kick between 223 and 308?
Thanks in advance for the replies. It is nice to know that there are people willing to help out someone who is clueless in these matter.

[jimmycthemd]

For smaller folks or ones that can't handle a .308, the .223 is great. I started my wife (4'11") with a 22lr and now she's shooting a .223 and loves it. Not much kick, just louder :-)

[Doc]

I didnt actually ask my question about the MBR. I am interested in the round, but have questions about any having shot the Kel-Tec SU-16C. I like that Kel-Tec is lower on the cost factor, but not too sure about them. I owned a P-11 in 9mm and hated it. I think that would be an understatement. I bought it as a CC piece and could not shoot more then about 10 rounds thru it with out splitting my trigger finger. It seemed that when the gun kicked my finger would somehow hit the trigger guard and would just get torn up. I tried many different things over the course about 7 years. Never could get to where I could comfortably shoot it. So I sold it.
Anyway I am interested in the SU-16C as a bug out gun. Just want to know others experience with it.
Thanks

[1Admin]

A lot of "problems" handling shotguns can be overcome with proper stance and training with the weapon. The body cocked /leaned back away from the weapon approach is NOT the best way to handle a shotgun.

Knees slightly bent, forward positive displacement, "nose over toes" type approach allows for better recoil control, easier movement, etc.

Essentially, the first one mentioned has the gun controlling you, the "nose over toes" forward positive type stance has you controlling the gun.

Personally, I'd work on that before I added another caliber (20 gauge). Also, despite what a lot of folks think, a shotgun is kinda overrated. I realize a lot of people feel they "have" to have one but....

[rice paddy daddy]

1Admin raises a good point. A lot of women have an improper stance, mostly leaning back. I never knew why until someone suggested to me that they are trying to compensate for the weight. Unfortunately, with a shotgun, or any relatively heavy recoiling long gun, weight is a good thing. It soaks up recoil. A recoil reducer that fits in the stock bolt hole on a shotgun will help, as well as a quality recoil pad such as Limbsaver. We put one on my wife's 20 ga Winchester pump and it makes things tolerable for her. Plus, the weighted reducer in the stock moves the center of ballance rearward a bit, perhaps helping with the stance.
A .223 round is a good self defense against humans, the military has been doing so for over 40 years now, but they are LOUD in a way that WILL take your hearing. During training make sure to wear hearing protection, or you'll be like me - having to wear two hearing aids (government issued, thanks VA).
For a lower cost than a good AR, an AK would serve you well. Unless you are planning on the apocalypse and zombie hordes, a good old lever action 30-30 will be good for hunting, homestead defense, and it doesn't have a lot of recoil either.
I also agree with 1Admin, if I knew i was going to be in a gunfight, I'd use a rifle.

[rice paddy daddy]

Oh, darn. I got so involved I never answered your question about the 20 ga. The 20 has less ammo options available than the 12 ga. Birdshot is pretty much the same; slugs are a little smaller than a 12, but still big enough; the difference is in buckshot. All you can get is #3 and #2.
For some reason, the recoil of one ounce of shot from a 20 ga is less than one ounce from a 12. Not much, only a couple of foot pounds, but it is.
Around our little farm I keep either a 410 or a 20 handy, even though I do have a few 12 ga's.

[Irish-Tech]

Im confused as why not to add a 22lr to the arsenal. it will be great for small game hunting and its cheap to teach the fundamentals of shooting to the family. That being said, a 223 is great. if you are going ar15 or ar10 (in 308) kick will be reduced thanks to the recoil spring. its been a month or 2 but ill shoot 90 rounds when i go and my shoulder doesn't feel sore at all.

[rice paddy daddy]

He mentioned he did not want to add another 22LR at this time. I just assumed he already had at least one.

[Doc]

Actually have 2 22lr rifles and 1 semi auto hangun. Since they are not going to be a MBR, I am going to spend the small amount of money I have on something a little bigger.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

So my first question is in regards to 20 gauge shot guns.Shells are cheaper I have a single shot 12. This is way too much power for either my wife or kids. The wife can shoot it but does not like it. So what are peoples thoughts on the 20 gauge.I as a kid in SE Okla killed everything that walked,crawled, swam or lived with mine and though I may have given an S&Per some grief recently for his girlie gun i do like them There are lot of different factors to think of. Does it have enough stopping power?The slugs can take deer at 100yd easy and they are also used for black bear, dunno what your needs are but... How common are the rounds?They are very common, go to wallie world or the gun shop and see and I am sure others will come up with questions that I have not even thought of. Food for thought on the shells. A 1oz load froma 12ga or a 1oz load from a 20ga. Which one kicks harder? The 20 as it is pushing the same amount of material thru a smaller hole. Check the load sizes for lighter loads if it is strictly for the smaller people.Also the slugs and buckshot (usually a #3) is a heavy kicker but there is always a trade off for true power
The next question is in regards to a MBR. I have been looking at 223 rounds. A lot of people recommend a 308. I am not against that idea, but would like to start swaging bullets in the future. I like the idea of being able to use the spent 22lr cases for bullet casings. Do you have experience in swaging and reloading. I wont get into it too deep unless you do as thats not the place to startNot a great reason, and would love others input. Another reason is the kick. I have not shot a 223 yet, but am assuming that the kick is not too bad.before you make that choice on anything try it I have a 270 win hunting rifle and it is too heavy a kick for the family. Is there much difference in kick between 223 and 308? yes the 308 is about the same if not just a tad more then the 270
Thanks in advance for the replies. It is nice to know that there are people willing to help out someone who is clueless in these matter.

I hope this helps, probably brings up more questions. The 223 is capable of taking game animals and is a hated catridge by gurus. Amazingly though bad guys, enemy fighters, innocent civilians and many large animals are takin all the time with it. It's just another one of those SILLY 9mm vs 45, Glock vs 1911, Ak vs AR, this brand vs that brand arguments that at the end of the day is meaningless and you may even get some with the 12ga vs 20ga but dont get caught in the hype. Get one and try it, actually try it, dont be a keyboard commando arguer

[Irish-Tech]

ah i missed the another part.

[MustangGal]

I have a youth model 20 gauge single shot that I started out shooting. I have long since graduated to a 12 gauge pump (I can't remember if it is a youth model or has a cut down stock). For me, having the correct size makes all the difference. I have a hard time if the stock is too long. I'm 5'5".

Whatever you choose for them to shoot, in my opinion, the most important factor is can they shoot it comfortably. Otherwise, they won't practice. Or they just won't want to shoot at all.

I don't claim to be a gun expert, but the way I see it - if you are not comfortable with your gun, you won't practice, if you don't practice, you won't be accurate - it may not matter as much with a shotgun, but you still lose familarity with the weapon.

[tarheelsman71]

Doc I would definitely purchase a su-16 if money is a factor. They are reliable, and while feel cheap in your hands they are pretty durable. Hard to get 1moa out them, but 2moa all day. So at 300 yards that is a 6moa gun and that is plenty. Along with the su-16, an SU-22 is a GREAT place to start with wife and kids. The rifle is 4 lbs, so holding offhand isnt a problem for most kids. My 9 yr old scored 10 out of 10 on the offhand portion of the AQT. Mags are cheap (right now) at 44mag.com...12 bucks. Normally about 22 to 30 at gander mountain.

RDD, probably had the best advice though and move to the AK platform. Just cheaper all around, mags, ammo, and rifles. I picked up 2 wasr 10's for 430 apiece with 4 mags and a gun bag for each.

[rice paddy daddy]

RDD, probably had the best advice though and move to the AK platform. Just cheaper all around, mags, ammo, and rifles. I picked up 2 wasr 10's for 430 apiece with 4 mags and a gun bag for each.

In 2008 when the democratic primaries narrowed down to Hillary and Obama I figured I'd better get in gear and bought a WASR 10, with two magazines, bayonet, magazine pouch, issue cleaning implements, brand new, for $319 + tax. :)
At my local Ace Hardware.:cool:
(If your local Ace doesn't sell guns-n-ammo you live in the wrong place)

[Doc]

Thanks to everyone. This is a lot of good information. I have been having problems deciding. My biggest problem is the fact that I am going to have to go with .223/5.56 round. As far as I can tell this is a limiting factor in getting an AK. Looking at the WASR's they make the WASR-3. But I had some difficulty in finding any for sale.
So in looking at the AR's I have found the Bushmaster Carbon 15 and the Smith & Wesson Sport AR-15. Does anyone have any experience with either of these. I am sure that I can find better if I spend 2K for a rifle, but that is not an option at this point. So the question is if either of these are good starter rifles.