suggested quantity..

[BioG8r]

More levity in an attempt to stall the meltdown,,, NOOOOOooooooo, My LTS dehydrated crackers are - - - Soylent Greeeeeeeenn

It is your board, and there will be rubberneckers who'll love the crash. But can this be done via PM?

[1Admin]

Attention! Attention! All 40+ year olds please report to the nearest death camp, ooops, did I say death camp? I MEANT HAPPY CAMP! Sandman Boltgun308 will direct you if necessary.

Boltgun308 has now initiated "Carousel" Logan's Run style on you. Sorry but over 40 and he's written you off.

I'm thinking some of the best fighters I know are over 40, gunfighters, knife fighters, H2H fighters. Right off the top of my head- Sonny P, Vlad, Martin Wheeler, Tom Sotis, Relson Gracie, Gabe Suarez and a nice MACV SOG vet that's now in his 60's that mentored a bunch of young and dumb kids in their teenage years teaching them a lot of the stuff that kept him alive in North Vietnam. But in Boltgun's world these people aren't worthy cause they have made it past 40 and should now enter "Carousel."

And for the record and to clear some of the twisting Sandman Boltgun308 made- I never said you weren't a super warrior if you didn't practice 2K rounds worth yearly. Nor did I ever state you have to shoot that much to survive. That's just stupid and plain TWISTING. Everyone's rate of retention will be different, some may be way less than that, some will be way more than that. The point is that if your not training then you don't know. And I never said LEO's or Mil shooters sucked. But unlike him, I did give REAL WORLD EXAMPLES from real world experience. A fair amount of experience over 26 years and interacting with hundreds of people in training.

Basically he got caught in his BS web of snipes at people here. Just because your not called out on something here the first time you do it, doesn't mean the staff didn't take notice. Sandman I mean Boltgun308 has been on the "being a jerk to others" radar for some time now.

[BioG8r]

Jimmy, I was trying to come up with something similar, but kept reminding myself of the eraser and delete key.. Glad you spoke up, I hope alll involved will read and heed before it goes thermo..new q ler.

We all have our good traits, sometimes our opinions hide them..

for the sake of ALL

[jimmycthemd]

Ok, I've been reading this thread....I think it's time to lock it and call it a day....too much emotion involved. My two cents.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Why are you soooo negative about the age thing? Have you given up and expect that everyone above 40 should too?
The average age of the people here are over 40 with a lot being 50+. How much hand-to-hand is someone going to learn that has never learned even basic self defense skills in the past and then add age in to the equation. Be realistic. We just did it 2 weekends ago right here at the house, they all chimed in on how much they learned already on the other post.There are no old fighters. Bull there are fewer but even at my job there are many who will when it is needed. Getting old is nothing to be ashamed of, just don't over estimate what you are going to accomplish in the real world of bare knuckle brawling.Exactly and the only way you know what you are truely capable of is to train, I see guys all the way in their 70s in classes all the time. They are not trying the spinning roundhouses but they are still working and enjoying what they can do and I hear fewer excuses and whining out of them. And the guy that was over 60 stating he was just as fast now as he was 30 years ago....I know a few, i'm not one thoughhow many MMA fighters you see in there 40's much less 60. None, it's a sport, and yes we dont heal as fast but there is no reason not to do what you can.I do see MANY over the age limit still in the gyms though. Wouldnt try Randy Cotoure anytime soon either:) I dont wish to build any MMA fighters nor do i think i'm the next Tito Ortiz as stated but I can show and build on things outside of the normal box that gives the everyday person as most are the edge on someone wishing to do them harm. This isnt a NatGeo prepper deal where we hide in the surbubia house and new tags and pretend nothing bad will ever come our way and if it does this rifle will solve all. This is real life and real life stuff, you can get jumped buying groceries. AND it's not "their fault" if that happens as stated either.
There is a lot of really good information on this site but when it comes to men and guns, fighting, etc., the men usually go overboard. What I show is alway ENCOURAGED never a "if you dont do this you will die". I even have family that are incapable of doing much less practicing some of these things. They are tools for the toolbox nothing more. Do them or dont, doesn't bother me, just like growing tomatoes in an above ground box that have been discussed, do it or dont. Know one berates anyone for not using that method. Gardening was easier when i was young too so get off the "old" horse because the maximum effective range for an excuse is ZERO meters. There are just as many youngsters and practioners on this site that can benefit from information and maybe someone who was on the edge can be positively encouraged to try.
Just because I have different ideas than you does not make me wrong and vice-versa.

I have respected you for the skill you do bring and have even said i was glad that you chimed in on some things BUT you get real argumentative anytime someone pushes others outside of your ability box you know that? I dont always measure up to many SPers ideas of what I should be doing and many are way ahead of me in gardening, medical, homesteading etc and they state you should do this n that but i dont jump on them for going overboard when they can more tomatoes than that family can ever possibly eat before they turn or go way beyond medical skills than they will ever need. Shoot I'm even a FAILURE in many areas and am in so bad I can't even change it right now. I just roll with it, think on it and maybe disagree or maybe change something small. The fact that you discourage anyone older than 40 from taking/learning hand to hand fighting is ridiculous and even just plain mean and as a guy approaching 50 i won't allow you to do this even as a non mod.:mad:

[BioG8r]

Not my place really, ( I know, so shut up and go home) but I do want to at least attempt to quell a situation, (time to speak in euphemisms) We all have opinions and most are like onions, They stink to some folks! (cleaned up from the original we all know)!

Most of us have visited the zoo, I think Matt does regularly to see whats on the potential menu, but when the bear finds something not to his liking we probably should come back and see him later or at least quit poking at him.

The safety glass is only so thick and we are peeking into his habitat. I don't like to think about the weakest link kinda thing, but it is true and when the glass breaks someones going to feel his wrath!

I am a cable tv watcher sooo, I have a hardtime affording the 2k rounds/yr to prep as a true warrior would, I also weigh as much as a small pickup truck (I know loose the cable and the hence the tonnage, but all things as they are;) running from the enemy is not a realistic option. I do prefer knowing what a real training session consists of and what benchmarks are being attained. So I am learning from both sides of the comm.

I also can see, as clearly as Ms. Keller, that bothsides are pee'd and that verbal judo is going to end in a TKO!

I am not the sharpest pencil in the box but I know why they put an eraser on my a** and a delete key on the keyboard.

First of all, I never said I was military, ex-military, cop, civilian, or anything else for that matter. You assumed.

Second of all I was in on the testing of the Springfield scopes when they first came out. I've personally owned 2 of them. That was also when The Mark 4 came in a 10X and 16X only. A lot of guys were looking for a good variable and the Springfield "looked" like a good choice. There is a reason they are no longer made. It is not hard to do a google search on them. One lost the reticle and the other would not track and the group would wander around on the target or you would have unexplained fliers.

I am also not talking about round count for a bolt gun. If you are giving or taking a class, of course you will have a large round count. People pay for a class on how to shoot guns, they want to shoot a LOT. Once you master that skill and I mean OWN it, you don't need to send hundreds of rounds down range a month to retain that skill set. Practice it yes, but no since beating a dead horse. Move on to something else and spend time trying to learn another skill set. I also did not say 2k rounds was too much to shoot, just that it is not necessary to scare someone in to thinking they need to be a SEAL to survive. Good basic marksmanship and gun handling skills will suffice for 90% of most people unless they personally want more, and I say again, completely up to them but not necessarily required.

Do you actually read the threads that are started here? The average age of the people here are over 40 with a lot being 50+. How much hand-to-hand is someone going to learn that has never learned even basic self defense skills in the past and then add age in to the equation. Be realistic. There are no old fighters. Getting old is nothing to be ashamed of, just don't over estimate what you are going to accomplish in the real world of bare knuckle brawling. And the guy that was over 60 stating he was just as fast now as he was 30 years ago....how many MMA fighters you see in there 40's much less 60.

As far as showing you that you don't need 2000 rds of rifle ammo to practice in a year. Done. Most of the military and most law enforcement does not expend 2k rds a year for all weapons combined, much less just rifle ammo. And to think how poorly trained these guys are by your standards and they still win probably 90% of the gunfights they are in. Go figure. Could they be better yes, but bottom line they still win most of the time. And unfortunately the best trained guys in the world lose every once in a while.

There is a lot of really good information on this site but when it comes to men and guns, fighting, etc., the men usually go overboard. Just because I have different ideas than you does not make me wrong and vice-versa. You can call it argumentative all you want. I use for example your basic year's supply of grains that you recommend. You state up front that this will get you started in the right direction and is a good base to add on to as you can. You do not have the same opinion about guns, ammo, or training. Simply you must take a week or weeks, go to a class or classes, shoot almost 4000 rds of ammo (by your math above) yearly to make it SHTF. That is simply false and it is proven every day by LEO and the military everyday. If the money, time, and energy is available, then yes, the more you train CORRECTLY, the better you will be, that is a given.

[1Admin]

So let's say a person goes to PRACTICE six times a year. Not a lot really, once every 2 months.

Basing on the 2,000 rounds divided by 6 times means 330'ish rounds per practice season. Still seems like a lot right? That's 11 mags.

So, since we aren't NINJAS like some think they are, we probably will have to reinforce our skill sets we already have.
That usually means some warm up drills.

Let's say some basic stuff 30 yards out, bring your rifle up from various carry positions, engage the target 2-3 times, scan for more targets, do any AA stuff you've trained in. There is a couple mags used up.

Keeping it simple, from there let's move on first to some slow, controlled movement- forward, backwards, lateral. Easy basic stuff, move inside the big box type drills.
There is a couple mags more used up.

Alright, now reload your empties with 5 to 10 rounds each do the same drill adding reloading during controlled movement.
There is a mag or two used up.

Let's not forget malfunction drills, even us dumb commie rifle carrying guys practice these. No dummy rounds? sometimes empty shells work. Have a training partner load your mags. Work the same warmup and controlled movement drills with the ganked up magazines.
There is at least a mag used up.

Time for pistol transitions. Comb your hair, use the sling, go to cradle, work the different transitions based on the situation- is your rifle FUBAR or is it just that it's potentially quicker at short range to draw pistol? Do you have to move a wounded person? All these factors can determine the way you transition.
There is a mag used up. AND some pistol ammo- GASP!!!

Basic position shooting, changing positions and basic use of cover. Work going from standing to kneeling, to modfied prone, to prone, supine, get up with the rifle in hand. Basic use of cover, use of space, work some drop outs, slice corners.
There is about 3-4 mags used up.

Now for slow, accurate fire, BRM work. Keep it simple let's start at 100 yards. Slow fire. Everyone hitting well? OK let's go to 200.
There is 1-2 mags used up.

Push the pace slightly, let's go back to 100 yards. 30 seconds to fire 30 rounds on TWO targets, alternating back and forth between each target. Keep it simple at first and put targets side by side. You can add some "flavor" to this drill by starting it with a 100 yard run and starting the clock as soon as the shooter reaches the position.
There is 1-2 mags used up cause yes you will want to do this twice. Never met anyone who only wanted to do it once.

ON A LOW NOTE- there is 11 mags used up (330 rounds), we haven't even begun to discuss anything advanced yet. Nor have we alloted extra ammo for those that won't pickup these skills 100% the first go around and that will want to run some of the drills again. If we really focus on DEVELOPING EFFICIENCY in some aspects like mag changes we will spend a lot of time on those as well.

Now let's discuss RETENTION, not of weapons but of skills.

I know a couple, a guy and a gal that I've trained before. Their skills advanced very rapidly when they would go out and shoot competitions fairly regularly between when I worked with them. I could move their pace along very quickly because they were RETAINING the skills well. Others I've trained NEVER touched their weapons between sessions and it was extremely obvious. Some 5 years later had never mastered basic skill sets. Why? Because they never practice. They were taught and would do things correctly during training sessions but they would never PRACTICE and so the once or twice a year I would see them, it was like all the basic skill sets were new to them.

No my friend, your not going to convince me that 2,000 rounds a year is too much to shoot. I've seen the results and the progress of people that PRACTICE that much and I've seen the piss poor results and lack of progress from those that neglected the practice.

[1Admin]

Yeah. Actually this same 11B also couldn't spot targets on a simple walk through jungle lane. Folks that have attended some of the FL and GA campouts know the type of lane I'm referring to. So while you think he could "hit a human 500 meters away" he couldn't SEE the damn things 20 yards away. Definitely NOT another candidate for more training huh??? He should probably get the Nintendo gun from the guard armory right? God forbid he spend money on training or ammo to improve himself, THAT would be stupid right??

I think your ASSuming too much.

#1. That people that shoot a lot don't hit much. That's just flipping stupid.
#2. That military training is the end all be all and that someone would never benefit from anything outside of that. Yet ironic that some of the better groups use a lot of civilian contractors to help them improve their shooting skills.
#3. That skill at arms is a learned once and always retained forever type of deal. I heartily disagree with that. Course this is from the same guy that said no one should bother learning hand to hand skills, "don't get pissed, I am laughing here."
#4. That shooting a lot of rounds in practice means an 8 hour mag dump.

I made it really clear when I said in the initial post that I was not referring to bolt gun work. Most I've ever shot at a Precision rifle type class was about 400 rounds in two days. I'm sure that's too much in your book also.

You know you called someone on the forum a "ninja" but I got the distinct feeling your the one that assumes you don't need any more training/experience. That's unfortunate. Just like in that -what you said was worthless right- hand to hand training, every time you get too prideful someone ends up coming along that's more skilled, stronger, faster that you are and helps bring you back to reality- sometimes via a broken limb, a quick nap or an elbow to the head. Course that assumes your willing to put your fragile ego in a place where it can be bruised. Many of us aren't willing to do that.

So here's an idea for you, since really most of what you've ever posted here leads me to believe your one of these "civilians don't need guns cause they have badarses like me to defend them" type mentalities. Why don't you lay out a simple training plan for a novice shooter (we all aren't Smooth Operators like you, but we can hope) including round counts to work up to a basic level, say what you would get in a couple of basic pistol classes. OK, here's where you'll probably say we shouldn't bother with pistol (kinda like you said with H2H) because all the enemies will be "500 meters" away and of course they will be wearing shirts clearly designating themselves as your enemy so you'll KNOW for sure.

So, share your info. You say shooting 2K rounds a year is too much, EXPLAIN WHY. Let's hear some SKILL BUILDING drills- cause no one can afford nor does mag dumps for fun since about 1988. Lay out how many ROUNDS should be used in each skill building exercise. Explain how often these drills should be done and bring a novice shooter up a reasonable level of proficiency. I want to know how many rounds you think that will take.

Maybe you can MAKE YOUR CASE instead of making an arse of yourself? That would be a good way to stay around.

And really, a Springfield scope? He was lucky to hit the target at all much
less a 4" group AND on top of a Savage? That guy was a true marksman with a 4"
group. Imagine a Springer on top of an AK. Now that would be a formidable long
range combination. BTW, don't get pissed, I am laughing here.

Ironic that this almost exact system and ammo (Federal Gold match 168g. SBTHP) was used to make consistent groups less than an MOA at over 500 yards. Kept one of the targets and most of the staff here have seen it. Hell one group was 1/2 moa but honestly that was probably a fluke. That was just lowly ole me, idiotic ba$tard that wastes a lot of money on classes and does all those 8 hour mag dumps and such.

The one that thought a 4" group at 100 yards was good was a 20 year veteran, in a unit that definitely did not shoot that much. His trigger pull sucked, his follow through was non existent, his position was wrought with excess tension. He listened to a few tips, applied them and within a few minutes dropped the size of the group by half.

Best mil shooter I've seen was a KS national guard "major" that was at a class in Texas. This guy spent his own dollars to attend numerous CIVILIAN shooting classes and said his skills had drastically increased since.

And lastly, this is your house, you want me gone just say the word. But if
you allow me to stay, I may or may not agree with everyone here, and as you
know, I don't hide my opinions very well. I have been respectful and will
continue to do so in the future but if feelings have already been hurt then
maybe I do need to go. I believe that I can disagree with anyone and still be
friends but that may not be the case here. Your call.

You haven't been respectful to more than a few people. Just saying stupid crap like "this is who I am" after being an arse doesn't cut it.

You've been given some slack previously because you said your were mil. you've used that up now. Just so we both understand each other. A friendly debate is o.k. but when your not making your case, your just being argumentative. Make your case.

I know exactly what is outside the realm of the military and LE, but that was not the question. A lot of people come to this site that are apprehensive of what may or may not be coming and some here do nothing to give them real world advice. If Jimmy can afford to shoot 2k rds of practice ammo for his main rifle only, that is great. I imagine since he is asking that he does not have a large budget for ammo. I personally would rather him have 1k of ammo and some E&E skills and a good dose of common sense so that he does not need 2k rds worth of practice ammo a year. But if Jimmy is a gun guy and loves to shoot, great...nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, if Jimmy or anyone else wants to be at the level of Tier 1 guys then I don't care how much he practices because it is more than how good he is with a gun. Shooting is 10% or less of the equation.

You make my point for me with the 11B. Think of how much training he has and by your own words could not shoot well, but would you write him off as not being a threat? He may not be able to hit a piece of steel at 50 yards, but can he hit a human at 500 meters while being hot, hungry, thirsty, bone tired, and while taking enemy fire? My money is on the 11Bravo. They don't hand out Ranger tabs to a candyass. I also bet he doesn't shoot 2k rds a year in training either, but if he does then that shows that it is how you train over how much you train.

And really, a Springfield scope? He was lucky to hit the target at all much less a 4" group AND on top of a Savage? That guy was a true marksman with a 4" group. Imagine a Springer on top of an AK. Now that would be a formidable long range combination. BTW, don't get pissed, I am laughing here.

And lastly, this is your house, you want me gone just say the word. But if you allow me to stay, I may or may not agree with everyone here, and as you know, I don't hide my opinions very well. I have been respectful and will continue to do so in the future but if feelings have already been hurt then maybe I do need to go. I believe that I can disagree with anyone and still be friends but that may not be the case here. Your call.

[jimmydiablo]

When I shoot by myself its all practice. When in a group I tend to watch more than shoot to make sure all safety being adhered to. Especially when with children.

[1Admin]

2K is a lot?

OK, I guess we could the little nintendo gun deal like a lot of guard units used to do. That would save some ammo right? Yep, and it reflected in the 20 year veteran that thought a 4" group at 100 yards with a Savage 308 bolt gun and springfield scope was good. Or how about the 11B supposed Ranger that couldn't hit a 1/2 IPSC steel at 50 yards to save his soul? I could tell you some stories my friend...

Their is a whole wide world of shooting and training outside of the relatively narrow realm of what is given in the military. You should experience it.

And yes I did catch the personal SNIPE you made at me and yes it did piss me off. This is not the first time you've pissed people off here, suffice to say chill out or it will be your last ;)

Shoot an AK over 300 yards and I can see why you need 2k rounds of ammo a year to pactice.

I see this all the time on the net. There are front line military units that don't shoot 2k rounds of training ammo a year per man. Remember training quality over quantity and the same applies to your ammo. The 7.62x39 should be an accurate round and I really like it for CQB over the 223 military FMJ stuff but the guns and surplus ammo are garbage as far as accuracy is concerned. I don't know how the AR does in 7.62x39 with good loads. No reason it should not be just as accurate as the 223 versions.

[1Admin]

Dry firing is great and you can do a lot with it. Sub caliber work is o.k. also.

Realistically you should be training and shooting at least a couple thousand rounds through your main rifle every year. Didn't say a boltgun. I meant like an AK or (God forbid LOL) an AR.

If you can't find a reason to train that much, just watch the news for a couple days. If you can't find something you need work on, your ego is too flipping big. If you can't find the money for the ammo, cancel your cable..... :)

[jimmydiablo]

Thanks for replys guys