Pre 1899 Guns

[PA_Prep]

Given the information here and on other sites I've come to think that getting a CCL and handgun may be a good Idea. However, the scenarios in which it would be the most useful are the ones in which the government is most likely to ban or confiscate it.

However, pre 1899 gun are not "firearms" under federal and many state laws. They require no registration and can be purchased directly from some guy on the internet instead of thru a FFL Dealer. Its difficult to confiscate what you don't know about and given the current lax regulations they may be the last class of guns to be banned or regulated to death.

Before 1899 people did use guns effectively for protection. So is a 100+ year old gun, in good working order, a viable option as a CCW? In general what does one look for when buying a used gun? What type of guns from this era, and in general, would be appropriate for this type of use?

[Grinnan Barrett]

I would not recommend a pre 1898 weapon if that is what you are referring to. Sometimes called Curio and Relic firearms. You have to remember that even some pre 1898 guns are not C&R eligible. An 1895 Nagant Revolver is an example. It is pre 98 but not C&R. I collect old guns and hove so for years. However, I do not want to put my life on the line with a gun over 100 years old. Stick with modern semi auto firearms and stock in a minimum of 1000 rounds of ammo at once. Add to your ammo stash as you can. Use at least 200 rounds per year to stay proficient with your firearm. If it comes down to a time when weapons are being confiscated then all deals are off. They will have kids turning in parents in school and community centers run by government. GB

[rice paddy daddy]

I'll second that. I have a concealed firearm license, and the guns I carry are up to the task of playing "You Bet Your Life".
Unless you live in an area with mandatory firearm registration, how are "they" going to know what you have anyway?

[PA_Prep]

Grinnan Barrett:

Sometimes called Curio and Relic firearms.

Curio and Relic is different, from wikipedia:

A special type of FFL is available to collectors of curio or relic (C&R) firearms. C&R firearms are defined in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 478.11 as those "...of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." An application for a C&R FFL is filed using ATF Form 7CR.

To be recognized by ATF as a C&R firearm, a firearm must fall into at least one of the following three categories:

1. Firearms manufactured more than 50 years prior to the current date, not including replicas
   
2. Firearms certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms as curios or relics of museum interest
   
3. Any other firearms that derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category requires evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Pre 1899 is defined as:

Antique guns made in or before 1898 ("pre-1899")[5] are generally outside of Federal jurisdiction, and may be bought and sold across state lines without a FFL. The only exceptions are short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and machineguns made in and before 1898, which are regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Unlike C&R guns, antique guns can be re-arsenalized, sporterized, re-barreled, or re-chambered, yet they will still retain their Federally-exempt status. Even if every part except the receiver is replaced, a pre-1899 firearm still qualifies as an antique. FFL holders have been directed not to enter Pre-1899 antique guns into their Bound Books.

rice paddy daddy

Unless you live in an area with mandatory firearm registration, how are "they" going to know what you have anyway?

If you purchase a gun from a FFL then they are required to maintain a record of sale, from wikipedia:

FFL holders are required to keep a registry of firearms sales in an ATF-approved Bound Book, or a computerized equivalent using ATF-approved software. Licensed dealers must also maintain file copies of Form 4473 or eForm 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record" documents, for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. When retiring or otherwise relinquishing a license, these records are sent to the BATFE's Out-of-Business Records Center. Licensed collectors are not required to send their records to the BATFE when relinquishing their license. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five business day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

Grinnan Barrett:

However, I do not want to put my life on the line with a gun over 100 years old

Good point but it seems a pre 1899 gun can be repaired and modified to bring it up to snuff without losing its status. I'm not a gunsmith so I don't know how much can actual be done but this seem like a pretty big loophole.

Grinnan Barrett:

If it comes down to a time when weapons are being confiscated then all deals are off.

You mean when the SHTF, sounds like a good time to have a gun. ;)

[rice paddy daddy]

If you purchase a gun from a FFL then they are required to maintain a record of sale, from wikipedia:

That does not mean that you still have it. You may have sold it.

[PA_Prep]

That does not mean that you still have it. You may have sold it.

According to Federal law you can not transfer it interstate, not sure what the federal requirements would be for a local transfer. However in PA there would be a record of the transfer, see below. In any case they are going to ask who you sold it to, might get a bit annoyed if they don't find it there.


[B]18 Pa.C.S.

[rice paddy daddy]

Help me understand something. You ask a seemingly innocous question for your first post, then your two subsequent posts are rebutting the answers given, complete with quoting of law, etc.
Who are you and why are you here?
As for myself, I'm outa this thread.
Goodbye.

[PA_Prep]

Who are you

I'm someone who sees our county declining. Crime increasing while political correctness take precedence over self defense.

why are you here

I see an increasing need for a means of self defense but also see a an increase desire on the part of the government to regulate things, including guns. Haven't you heard guns are evil. Only extremist and terrorist buy guns. I doubt you will be able to legally own hand guns within a few years.

However the government does not seem to be as interested in antique guns (pre-1899, 1898 and earlier). They are freely transferable, without record. A future ban on hand guns may not include this class of gun, and even if it did it would be unenforceable.

Now an old car, with a bit of time and money, can be made better then new. So how much can be done to an old gun. Can it be put into good working order. I've been reading this forum for a while and their seems to be a lot of expertise in this area here. So I post my question, "So is a 100+ year old gun, in good working order, a viable option as a CCW? In general what does one look for when buying a used gun?"

You ask a seemingly innocous question for your first post, then your two subsequent posts are rebutting the answers given, complete with quoting of law, etc.

The responses I got questioned the premise of my question on a legal basis (pre-1899 vs. C&R). So I post the legal information I had found. And also on the reliability of an older gun. So I clarified my question asking if an older gun could be brought up to snuff.

So it seem I have the answer to my questions. Guns are not like cars. There not a lot of knowledge available about repairing and updating older guns. So if it is doable it might require a bit of rocket science.

[610Alpha]

I saw a blog post about a guy getting his Curio and Relic license...

http://www.tngun.com/i-applied-for-a-curio-and-relic-type-3-ffl-yesterday/

http://www.tngun.com/cr-license-update/

http://www.tngun.com/cr-from-form-to-first-purchase/

For those that are interested :)

[Rmplstlskn]

I'm sure the LEO's confiscating ALL weapons in New Orleans asked if the guns were curios or relics....

If it ever happens, all weapons will be seized, then you will have to go to court to get your curio and relic back...

Rmpl

[Benn Gleck]

If you buy a gun new or from a dealer you have to fill out a 4473 form for that gun.

If you buy from a person AKA a "private sale" a 4473 is not required.

Go to a gunshow and buy from one of the people walking around or get on a local firearms forum with a for sale or trade section.

[610Alpha]

I'm sure the LEO's confiscating ALL weapons in New Orleans asked if the guns were curios or relics....

If it ever happens, all weapons will be seized, then you will have to go to court to get your curio and relic back...

Rmpl

I thought it was an interesting read and especially how he could basically have a bunch of these plus ammo pretty cheaply and could possibly arm his extended family without breaking the bank. Multiple aspects to this certainly.

Risk of confiscation is one aspect....being able to get ammo really cheap is another.