Ammo Choice for Self Defense

[Urban Survivalist]

If you want to checkout a cool ammo testing site checkout boxotruth.com its worth it.

The 15% hit count really legitimizes the larger calibers. If you only land one hit, I want that hit to be with the 45. The Glock 21 holds 14 rds so the 9mm holding 16 is not a viable argument in my opinion. All that being said, shoot what you're comfortable with even if it is a 9mm. I carried a 9mm for several years professionally because that was my only choice. I never felt under-gunned or insecure. I used the 115 gr +P+ Cor-Bon load exclusively. I have personally used the 147 gr loads in hand and sub guns and they DO NOT reliably expand and DO NOT reliably kill. There are some newer loads and newer bullets out there now that I have not tried but I would be suprised if they were much better. I do not have enough experience with the 124 gr to have an opinion.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Funny dogs where mentioned in report too, the Stuff that happens in the real world is crazy.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

And I never ment to say that the LEO could not shot, I have the utmost respect for LEO and our Armed Services. Using them as a Bench mark of what a "Professional" can do, I exect that I will not stack up, I know that. I was simply saying that they average 15% under life threanting scenrio, I can only HOPE to do as well but expect to do much worse. So out an 8 round magazine of .45 ACP if I get lucky I will land 1 round (15% = 1 out of 8). But out of 16 round 9mm magazine and get lucky it could be landing 2 rounds. Remember: 2 is 1 and 1 is NONE.

I know there was no disrespect I was just pointing something out. i have some friends in NYPD and the NYTAPD. One of them had some of them bad stats a while ago because the suspect let 2 pitbulls out on him as they were coming down the hallway and after that was done the fight was on with the guy. Your stats there are right on! LOL
High Cap Rules!

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

If we read the report (all 18 mostly "dry" pages) where the 15% stat came from it shows many intresting facts:

#1. Most shots where fired at 7 yards or less.
#2. The more "cops" involved in a shooting the more the shoots each officer shots, but the less each officer actually hits.

And I never ment to say that the LEO could not shot, I have the utmost respect for LEO and our Armed Services. Using them as a Bench mark of what a "Professional" can do, I exect that I will not stack up, I know that. I was simply saying that they average 15% under life threanting scenrio, I can only HOPE to do as well but expect to do much worse. So out an 8 round magazine of .45 ACP if I get lucky I will land 1 round (15% = 1 out of 8). But out of 16 round 9mm magazine and get lucky it could be landing 2 rounds.

Remember:
2 is 1 and 1 is NONE.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

A stat was given during my concealed carry class that LEOs when they had to use their weapon on average hit only 15% what they where aiming at. (That was hard for me to sallow so I looked into it)

Yes it will take multiple rounds when in a fight. That is fact not fiction so the more you carry the better off you are.
Folks somehow have this misconception that LEO are always 3 steps away standing face to face when shooting in ideal conditions so their numbers should be great. For those folks here are some good examples: Watch the LA shootout and tell me what were they supposed to do sit and wait for the "perfect" shot? You could almost watch them stats slide on that one huh? Watch cops tv show and tell me how many times have they run a considerable distance before having to take a shot at a moving suspect who is shooting back? Just yesterday around here an Officer had to fight a suspect who decided he was gonna kill the Officer in a hand to hand battle rather than surrender after less than lethal methods were deployed and multiple shots were fired under less than ideal conditions with them locked up in mortal combat and guess what they didnt all make hits while he was clenched up rolling around on the ground. Soldiers and LEOs always get beat up by couch commandos who have never killed anyone and believe they are all that and a bag of tater chips when instead it should be used as a lesson to understand what really happens in a real fight.
No matter the final decision on what you carry I'm glad to see you doing your homework and thinking because it is a thinking mans world.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

1 Shot 1 Kill with a pistol in a heart rate “black” situation is not likely to happen.

---- Below I will step on toes but it is what I have gleaned from weeks of reading and trying cut out all the B.S. that has been posted on the W.W.W.----

I am not expert but I have tried to find the experts and learn from what they have written.

A stat was given during my concealed carry class that LEOs when they had to use their weapon on average hit only 15% what they where aiming at. (That was hard for me to sallow so I looked into it)

Here is the report backing that info (page 4 of 18 has the spreadsheet)... BTW it is ten year study 1990 to 2000 based on NYC police shootings... The ten year average is only 15% hit rate. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

That tells me 3 things:

#1. Most of LEO needs alot more training (or different/better training than what they are getting)
#2. the more rounds one can carry the better
#3. the easier to shot (ie lighter recoil) the better

The 9mm usually carries more rounds, is usually easier to shot and it is a lot cheaper to shot (so I can train more) compared to .45 ACP. All are very good things.

Our Paradigm needs to change… In the first post I pasted some “facts”, that I was having trouble believing showing a 9mm could out perform a .45. Again that was hard for me to sallow because I always believed the .45 to better (it is common FACT right? Everyone knows that?). But I set out to find the studies where the info came from and a user here “snare” (thank you) gave a link to report backs that a 9mm is as effective as .45. This got me thinking about our paradigms…

We all know rifles shot a smaller bullet and usually a bullet with less weight than the typical .45 but a rifle is more likely to stop a man than a .45. We know that but why is that true? It is the speed at which the round hits the target and the science proves it.

So why is so hard for us to believe that a 9mm can produce effective stopping power, similar or even better than a .45 (See stats from my first post)? Our paradigm limits us from seeing/accepting the facts. The 9mm round is closer in weight and size of a .45 than say your 5.56 NATO rounds is and the 9mm bullet is traveling much faster than the .45. So the speed is making up the difference of the weight and size. So our paradigm needs to change

You might say that it (9mm) does not penetrate light cover as well as the .45. I can see that point, but if we go back to the science, the wound profile are almost the exact same after passing through drill wall. See: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...allBarrier.jpg

I am no expert on the subject but I will read and try to understand all “verifiable" information I can find and try to adjust my paradigm with the info given.

So far all the “real” studies point to current 9mm being as effective as the .45. Are some rounds better than others in the 9mm? Yes, there is a greater difference between a good 9mm round and a poor one (from what I have read), much greater than the difference of a good .45 round and a poor .45 round. But the science shows a good 9mm round is comparable to a good .45 round. So if the 2 have rounds that are basically equal in "Stopping power" but of those 2, one cost half as much as the other and I can carry twice as many rounds as the other.... Which one is a better choice? Again using science and facts based on what is available today as the determining factors.

I have read about the subsonic stuff that people tried to use and they sucked (and the science proved that they sucked)... But again back to how a smaller round can be as (or more) effective, is SPEED and in subsonic you are limiting that SPEED. But I shoot the regular stuff, I don’t have a class III or a stamp, I don’t pull out a big tube and screw it onto the end of my pistol like a hitman or 007, do you?

For me the science of the currently available rounds and facts we are only going hit 15% if we are lucky point, ME, directly at 9mm with out question. If cost was not an issue I would choose the .40 (again the science is there to back it and you can carry similar high cap round counts like the 9mm).

I know I have stepped on toes but I try base my decisions and thoughts on facts available to me and not feelings or nostalgia or someone’s buddy that knew a guy that was an expert. I try to expand my paradigm as often as possible.

For me the 9mm is equal to the .45 but when we factor in cost and number of rounds one can carry the 9mm wins out.

[LizardKing]

It sounds to me like we're going after the 1 shot/1 kill scenario by saying that this round is better than that round. My .02 is that if I unload 6 rounds of 357 mag or a magazine of cheapo .45 on an intruder, the odds of them getting back up are pretty slim and at that point I've probably switched out to 12g anyway. I started with those two calibers many years ago and stocking another one to a given amount just never got into my budget.

[Patriot Prepper]

Years ago, I used to use Federal HydraShok all the time. It had some of the best wounding and stopping stats. Today I still use it along with Remington Golden Saber, Hornandy TAP, and Corbon, depending on prices and availability. They are all great rounds. Mostly shoot them in .45 - about 2 years ago started using the 9mm a little more - it's cheaper.

Shoot different types of ammo and see if any shoot better through your gun.

At defensive distances, they all shoot well and about the same in my Sig P226 - and the p220 - just buy what you can get and shoot it. Have fun. Don't worry about knock down power, the brands I listed and several others will all deliver plenty of energy if the need should arise. As long as it is quality ammo, the type you use will be the least of your concerns.

[snare]

:rolleyes:

147 gr 9mm JHPs, like those on the list , are not junk.

Like Matt said, 115 gr +P+. 147 gr stuff is junk, might as well carry hardball. 9mm would be my last choice if 40 or 45 were available, if you want to stay with an auto. I have a 357 Sig also and it is a good round, but I would be concerned on ammo availibility. 45 acp +P is hard or impossible to beat with a handgun of normal proportions.

I've used a lot of suppressed stuff with 147 gr bullets for the 9mm. I have seen it expand on occasion but it is very hit and miss, even out of a sub gun (MP-5 SPD) with a longer barrel and higher velocities.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Matt,Thanks, I am very excited too.
I have access to a 1911 (AMT "Hardballer") that I had forgotten about. Now looking for some new magazines for it, I remember (10 years ago) it being "Picky" about the magazine and had narrowed it down to a single magazine labeled as a "Colt" but I suppected it being a "Nock Off". Most magazines seemed to not pull up tight, if I pressed up on the magazine during firing everything worked fine with all the magazines I had access to, but when I tried but without pressure on the magazine only the 1 labeled as a Colt worked 100%.

If you can apply pressure to the magazines and everything works well then the first step would be having the gun looked at and maybe replacing the magazine catch. I can't tell you for sure without seeing the pistol but a gusmith will be able to. It could be the mags but based on what you said I have my suspicions.
As GB stated don't worry about those folks who are going to try to throw their stuff in about other calibers when you asked specifically about 9mm ammo. There are alot of good choices out there and trying to sort thru it all can be maddening at times. Just find some, try it and if it works great and if it doesnt use it for targets then get a different brand. Accuracy first, expansion doesn't help if it doesn't hit the mark, then bullet performance because alot of folks have been killed with ball ammo that doesnt expand at all because it hit a vital.

[Grinnan Barrett]

One thing we have learned over a period of many years is each gun has it's own likes and dislikes when it comes to ammunition. You need to try different rounds through your gun before you settle on which one to have and know that you can depend you life on it. I have seen three identical guns come in to the shop and one will shoot a particular round with no problems and the other two may not.

Don't get caught up in the 45 arguments. 9MM has been killing people around the world for a hundred years. I own 9MM, 40 SW, 45 colt acp, 357 Sig, 9x18, 9x23, 7.62x25, and many other guns and they all will kill you. GB

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Matt,

Thanks, I am very excited too.

I have access to a 1911 (AMT "Hardballer") that I had forgotten about. Now looking for some new magazines for it, I remember (10 years ago) it being "Picky" about the magazine and had narrowed it down to a single magazine labeled as a "Colt" but I suppected it being a "Nock Off". Most magazines seemed to not pull up tight, if I pressed up on the magazine during firing everything worked fine with all the magazines I had access to, but when I tried but without pressure on the magazine only the 1 labeled as a Colt worked 100%.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Just make sure you shoot some of the good stuff AFTER run have run a few hundred rounds thru the gun. Some guns take a few hundred to get "broke in" and get thru any issues they or the shooter have. I'm excited for you!