Ammo Choice for Self Defense

[Matt In Oklahoma]

A stat was given during my concealed carry class that LEOs when they had to use their weapon on average hit only 15% what they where aiming at. (That was hard for me to sallow so I looked into it)

Yes it will take multiple rounds when in a fight. That is fact not fiction so the more you carry the better off you are.
Folks somehow have this misconception that LEO are always 3 steps away standing face to face when shooting in ideal conditions so their numbers should be great. For those folks here are some good examples: Watch the LA shootout and tell me what were they supposed to do sit and wait for the "perfect" shot? You could almost watch them stats slide on that one huh? Watch cops tv show and tell me how many times have they run a considerable distance before having to take a shot at a moving suspect who is shooting back? Just yesterday around here an Officer had to fight a suspect who decided he was gonna kill the Officer in a hand to hand battle rather than surrender after less than lethal methods were deployed and multiple shots were fired under less than ideal conditions with them locked up in mortal combat and guess what they didnt all make hits while he was clenched up rolling around on the ground. Soldiers and LEOs always get beat up by couch commandos who have never killed anyone and believe they are all that and a bag of tater chips when instead it should be used as a lesson to understand what really happens in a real fight.
No matter the final decision on what you carry I'm glad to see you doing your homework and thinking because it is a thinking mans world.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

If we read the report (all 18 mostly "dry" pages) where the 15% stat came from it shows many intresting facts:

#1. Most shots where fired at 7 yards or less.
#2. The more "cops" involved in a shooting the more the shoots each officer shots, but the less each officer actually hits.

And I never ment to say that the LEO could not shot, I have the utmost respect for LEO and our Armed Services. Using them as a Bench mark of what a "Professional" can do, I exect that I will not stack up, I know that. I was simply saying that they average 15% under life threanting scenrio, I can only HOPE to do as well but expect to do much worse. So out an 8 round magazine of .45 ACP if I get lucky I will land 1 round (15% = 1 out of 8). But out of 16 round 9mm magazine and get lucky it could be landing 2 rounds.

Remember:
2 is 1 and 1 is NONE.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

And I never ment to say that the LEO could not shot, I have the utmost respect for LEO and our Armed Services. Using them as a Bench mark of what a "Professional" can do, I exect that I will not stack up, I know that. I was simply saying that they average 15% under life threanting scenrio, I can only HOPE to do as well but expect to do much worse. So out an 8 round magazine of .45 ACP if I get lucky I will land 1 round (15% = 1 out of 8). But out of 16 round 9mm magazine and get lucky it could be landing 2 rounds. Remember: 2 is 1 and 1 is NONE.

I know there was no disrespect I was just pointing something out. i have some friends in NYPD and the NYTAPD. One of them had some of them bad stats a while ago because the suspect let 2 pitbulls out on him as they were coming down the hallway and after that was done the fight was on with the guy. Your stats there are right on! LOL
High Cap Rules!

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Funny dogs where mentioned in report too, the Stuff that happens in the real world is crazy.

[boltgun308]

The 15% hit count really legitimizes the larger calibers. If you only land one hit, I want that hit to be with the 45. The Glock 21 holds 14 rds so the 9mm holding 16 is not a viable argument in my opinion. All that being said, shoot what you're comfortable with even if it is a 9mm. I carried a 9mm for several years professionally because that was my only choice. I never felt under-gunned or insecure. I used the 115 gr +P+ Cor-Bon load exclusively. I have personally used the 147 gr loads in hand and sub guns and they DO NOT reliably expand and DO NOT reliably kill. There are some newer loads and newer bullets out there now that I have not tried but I would be suprised if they were much better. I do not have enough experience with the 124 gr to have an opinion.

[Urban Survivalist]

If you want to checkout a cool ammo testing site checkout boxotruth.com its worth it.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Urban,

Thanks (had to google it) its http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[Hawkeye]

My preferred choice is 124gr +P Gold Dots, or, the 127 +P+ Rangers. There are a number of other 124 gr +P loads that work well. There are also some 147's that work well. I avoid 115 gr loads, +P or otherwise, as I do not like their performance. They rarely give the penetration I prefer, especially on living tissue.

[sabretech2001]

There's no 'perfect' handgun round. The FBI (IIRC) has a study out that says that one has an 80% chance of survivng a gunshot wound. Of course that decreases with the number of hits. By all means find something you like and buy a lot of it, but 1000 rounds of 'good enough' is better than 500 rounds of 'perfect'.

[Klayton]

Well EVERYBODY has an opinion on this, so let me throw in my 2 cents.

I carry a .45 everyday, wife carries a 9mm everyday. WHY? I like the THUMP from the .45 hitting a solid hit (heard it referred to as a fly chunk of lead before), wife likes the less recoil and FAR greater capacity magazine.

Now, for ALL the 9mm are superior people that are quick to point out the 13+ inches of penetration, here is what I want you to do. Go get your standard TWELVE inch ruler, borrow your kid's if you have to, then you and your other half take turns "proving" my point.

First one of you lay down flat on the floor (on your back obviously) and the other place the ruler perpendicular to the floor, and look how DEEP your body is. Thats right ladies and gentleman, NOT MANY people 13+ inches thick (this excludes old farts like me who need to stop growing my survival fat storage-LOL). Then switch out and trade places and do the same thing. You will be quite surprised. I use to have a photo of this being done, but cannot find it for the life of me.

So what does all this prove? Well mostly what it proves is EVERYTHING that is GREATER penetration than the average targets thickness equals OVER PENETRATION and possible friendly injury, AND means the bullet did NOT dump all its kinetic energy into its target.
So I will stick with my THUMPER, thank you very much.

Oh, and if looking at the FBI's ballistic charts, the 10mm beats the .45 and .40 hands down, just too many lady agents and limp wristed agents found it too difficult to control while firing... LOL

[Hawkeye]

Klayton,

Just some clarification. The FBI's penetration depth requirements, are for the minimum depth in ballistic gel. That in turn correlates into the proper depth in a human body, which is going to be much shorter than in gel. So you cant compare the two the way you are. The human body is pretty tough to shoot through. Also, overpenetration with handgun rounds and concern with collateral damage afterwards, is so insignificant as to be a non issue. Standard defensive handgun calibers....9mm, .40, .45, etc..., just dont have that much energy. If one does manage to make it all the way through a center mass hit on a human body, they will be so little energy left, its most likely going to do nothin gmore than leave a bruise on anyone else that it hits, and then they'd have to be pretty close. Last, even if it does go all the way through, two holes in a bad guy is always better than one. ;-)

[snare]

Humans have that tendency to hide behind things when you start shooting at them. Including windshields, car doors and even denim jackets. :)

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Now, for ALL the 9mm are superior

Klayton,

First if we go back to the test of the modern rounds you will notice that the .45 and 9mm are basically penatraing to the same depth.

Second I do not think that most shots that actually land on the target Square to that target (both vertically and horizontally)… So now start putting your ruler at angles and see how 13” ends up. Not only that but the likely hood of hitting bone (like Ribs that not present in the gel).

Third I was not trying to say a single 9mm round is better than a single .45 round. Some of the science does suggest that but most of the testing shows that they are basically the same. SO My point was that if they are basically the same why would I choose to carry a pistol that is heavier, bigger, has more recoil, carries less rounds, and is 50% more expensive to shoot but is really no better at "stopping" the threat.

I would NOT choose that pistol, unless I viewed it as a "fashion statement" or it had "Sentimental Value” to me... But to me a carry pistol is a tool of defense and looks/feelings are secondary to its primary use.

Now if we are talking about a “range gun” or a “Display Piece” or “Safe Queen” Sure some custom 1911s are basically works of art and I can see the draw. But I would not view that pistol as a defensive tool (can it be used as one sure but so can a baseball bat or even a Tiffany Lamp)... I would love to own a custom 1911 but I would also love to own a great painting. But I have never seen a GLOCK or other Poly gun that would be viewed as art, they are UGLY, but who cares… They do their JOB!

What has more "THUMP" a .30-06 or a .45 ACP? The 30-06 right? But why the .45 has a bigger diameter and more weight right? Its the speed. Same thing when you compare a .45 and 9mm, the 9mm has the speed to make up for the lack of weight and diameter.

The Opening diameter is not nearly as important as the internal wound cavity.

[Klayton]

What has more "THUMP" a .30-06 or a .45 ACP? The 30-06 right? But why the .45 has a bigger diameter and more weight right? Its the speed. Same thing when you compare a .45 and 9mm, the 9mm has the speed to make up for the lack of weight and diameter.

The Opening diameter is not nearly as important as the internal wound cavity.

As I said, everybody has their opinion. As for the "Thump" its referring to the old Soldiers who said when they hit the bad guys with the 1911 round it made a solid "Thump", I guess I should have mentioned that part of history for those that did not know this fact.

As for 30-06 vs 45 acp, that is irrelevant, and there is no need to lecture me about E=MC2, I did pass the science class last time I checked. I am well aware of what rounds get their energy from the speed vs the weight of the projectile.

Finally, I would argue that the entry hole IS important, you are NOT always going to hit center mass, and the bigger hole is important when you do not. Again, as I original said, its all about opinion, and it was just my two cents...

**steps off his case of .45 ammo**

[Mjollnir]

Working in the ER of a level one trauma center, I've seen hundreds of gun shot wounds involving everything from small caliber handguns to high powered hunting rifles and shotguns. I also get to interact with LEO's often as a result and get alot of additional info on how these sceraios played out and what all is involved. Prior to that, I've used(and still continue to) every opprotunity I could from hunting to butchering day to test various calibers and bullet configurations to see what kind of performance I could expect from them. I'm not trying to say I know more or less than the next guy..... just giving a little back ground on the how and why behind my personal opinions on the matter.

When it comes to handguns and the wounds they create, bullet diameter itself, has very little to do with effectiveness in most cases. The two major key factors that tend to outweigh all others I have found are, penetration and placement. If the rounds don't strike vital or structural functions capable of shutting down the threat, due to lack of penetration or placement, then all else is kinda moot.

While expanding bullets create a larger wound channel the main benefits are in limiting risk to others from over penetration and the bullet being less prone to deflection and ricochet. Expanding bullets can however limit penetration too much in some smaller calibers.

Hawkeye, I have some photos and data of a goat we shot with 115gr +p Gold Dot. You might be surprised by the penetration results. I'm not opposed to posting them as long as the graphic nature doesn't offend others.