Your shtf go to rifle

[protus]

Well, title says it. What is your main go to rifle/pistol if the fecal matters defys gravity and hits the fan.

Explain the pros/cons, what you hate about it, what you love about it. why you chose it.would you get something different.

I'll start it off.
I started out with a 762x51nato MBR a CETME mdl C. These had a bad rap since day one ,mostly due to the fact that they were fairly unknown till around the 01-02' time frame. Here on the market is a "cheap" HK91 clone which threw the Hk snobs into a hissy. When in fact it was the the other way around. Unfortunately like the ealry WASR10's CAI produced, they also produced the modl C CETME, so QC was not all there. I had researched and re built mine. How ever due to cheap mags( g3/hk91 ones and cetme ones) , you could be hit and miss on your mags. This was a reliability issue, that really bugged me. The rifle was way more accurate than i was. It was easy to use, hit hard, but sucked being lugged around all day. At near 10+lbs loaded, along with the gear needed to feed it, it took its toll. I had put over 5 thousand rounds through this rifle in under a 2.5-3 year time frame. I had maybe 200 failures. Most mag related and some surplus ammo related. That was 200 to many imho. No matter what the reason. So i started to look for a replacement as my "go to" and set the cetme aside as a range toy,back up.
I started looking into a more of a carbine platform. Which was hard for me as i am a "308" guy. I refused to get an AR style rifle. One becuase i have yet to see one work 100% at any range i have ever been on( i know you AR guys are screaming right now), and two i did not have the cash to buy a rifle,mags,parts and ammo all at once. Trust me, i wouldn't kick an AR outta bed, but like my CETME mdl C, it aint the one im taking home to marry!:p
So i went to the AK. I chose to go with a 762 variant. Mostly becuase of ammo cost, parts and mags. It took me about 3-4 months of shopping,looking,researching before i found one i wanted. Those that were with me on these "hunting" trips wanted to kill me LOL. I was so damn picky it wasn't funny. But again. I was buying this rifle for my main shtf rifle. I did not want to compromise anything,to have to buy again in a years time( i am cheap like that). I soon had my AK. A vector arms model. All matching ,build etc. Well being as it was an AK, i had to not clean it, well i did wipe it down after 600+ rounds becuase it was starting to rust on the outside( vectors werent painted, they were oxided). Around the 1500 round count, i took the rifle all the way down. cleaned and painted it. I got sick of it rusting when used outdoors. I have put near 4-6k through it. Honestly i stopped counting at the 4k mark. I just wipe down the blot group and make sure there is some grease on the rails and contact points . I run mine pretty dry. I do this about ever 3-500 rounds. At the 1k round mark is about when i strip it all the way down. I have had ZERO malfunctions of any kind with this rifle. except one- the sticker fell off ( sorry inside joke);)
Accuracy wise. well it is an AK, but for the distances that i would be using this rifle for in a "survival situation" it is minute of bad guy all day long out to 300+ I have not added any optics to it yet. I would like to add a red dot in the future, but i firmly follow KISS when it comes to my weapons the last few years. More junk to break means more chance of my weapon going down imho.
ammo wise, i dont worry about what i shoot in it. I have mostly run golden tiger, but have used other "Russian" made stuff with the same effect. BANG. every time. Some is more dirtier than others ( monarch was nasty),some have more flash at night ( monarch,wolf), accuracy wasn't effected much at all.
The only mods to my rifle have been a paint job and i installed an OSOE single point bungee sling ( which im still in the air about- its great for confined areas, but i see it failing over long periods of "walking" in the comfort zone...).Plan to replace the slant break for a "cage" style flash hider, but again,since i have had zero issues with the slant (even at night) i do not know if i will replace it.

My only "con" is the sights,being used to peep sights it took a bit to adjust. The butt stock could be longer( again if i wanted to replace it) this could be why the sights give me issue at times ( LOP and all). These are about the only issues i have had.

So that is why i went with the AK platform. Cheap parts,rugged,light weight with a round that will defeat/handle most issues i will come in contact with in the 0-250yard range.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Oh, you had to go and do it...AK vs AR vs .308 vs 7.62 etc. I noted you didn't say which is "best". Best is what serves the user. Anyway, I'm with you. AK for me as I have yet to have a "failure". Don't have as many rounds thru as you, maybe 1000, but still serving me well. Yugo for me, but had to change out stock as it was too short for me. Still searching for that "perfect optic" for these tired eyes. Do they make and optic with bifocals...LOL

[protus]

Oh, you had to go and do it...AK vs AR vs .308 vs 7.62 etc. I noted you didn't say which is "best". Best is what serves the user. Anyway, I'm with you. AK for me as I have yet to have a "failure". Don't have as many rounds thru as you, maybe 1000, but still serving me well. Yugo for me, but had to change out stock as it was too short for me. Still searching for that "perfect optic" for these tired eyes. Do they make and optic with bifocals...LOL

naw just trade it in for a rpk clone ,,get a few drums and start walking the rounds in ;p
wonder if one of relex sights that can co-witness would work with the "eye" wear/?

[Lowdown3]

The "sticker" finally came off huh? LOL

Reliability is the name of the game for me also. In 24 years I've owned most of the major weapons systems out there- AR15 (2 different), HK91, M1A, FN Fal, AK's, Mini 14's, etc.

Of that list still standing are the AK's and an M1A that I have had problems with- RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX but I have not gotten rid of. All the rest failed me, some horribly. Some I tried twice because I was told by people that my first choice was junk, I needed to buy a better version, etc. only to have the 2nd one horribly fail in the same way the first one did.

AK's have limitations, NO ARGUMENT there! They are however more accurate than people realize. 300 yards is completely doable with them and I've witnessed more than a few people on this board hit well at that range without a problem at classes. So it's not a fluke that one guy with an ACOG on his was able to get 300 yard hits.

If I lived out west with more "wide open spaces" I'd resume the search for a truly reliable .308 because distance would be a much bigger factor. Because our normal ranges down here are under 200 yards, I have no problem with the AK's. Been an AK shooter since 1988

[Rmplstlskn]

Well, the title says, "SHTF rifle" and Lord knows we preppers love to talk guns, so... Problem is, SHTF is a big, unknown target. I'd like to think (and hope) that any SHTF event will have me holed at at home, where SHTF would be the most comfortable, and as this is my main plan, my needs in a SHTF rifle may be different than those on foot or ATV's out in the hinterlands doing the Jeremiah Johnson thing... But SHTF might not be as I hope and plan on, so I will share my "alternatives" as well, and why.

For a home-based SHTF event, I have to say, without a doubt, my DSA SA-58 FAL Carbine. Besides the big boom and massive splat patterns and penetration of the .308, I have added a Trijicon ACOG TA11-D (longest eye relief) mounted on a DSA integral Extreme mount (pic below is old config with Larue mounts and old sling).



The FAL is tough, gas adjustable, and has numerous durability experiments to prove it to be a RELIABLE, worthy SHTF rifle. The mags are tough and at one time very cheap. Unlike other platforms, a beat-up magazine doesn't seem to bother the FAL much... In my 'hood, predators will TRY to use the cover of trees or vehicles and such, and the 308 will make that a FAIL folly...

The downside: Heavy, both gun and ammo (but for a home-based SHTF event, no big deal). Some parts may need to be tweaked to fit correctly if you need to replace something, but once set right, you can forget it. Good ammo expensive and quality surplus hard to find and expensive. If you didn't buy up in the 80's and 90's you missed out and it will cost you $$$$$$$$ to feed this rifle.

For other types of SHTF events where one would have to be more mobile, I am honestly in a toss-up between my sweet, well-outfitted Sabre AR-15 mid-length Carbine and the Romy SAR-1 folding stock AK. But since I have a nice Aimpoint on the AR, lots of mags & PMAGS, and lots of good, surplus ammo, as well as a functional, comfortable sling and web gear, I do believe I would choose the AR-15. I know the AR-15 can be finicky, but my set-up, IMO, is a good compromise and has been 100% reliable so far. Use good parts, keep it well lubed, and it runs... They are also easy to swap parts and repair too. Plenty of spare parts on hand...

Need I mention ACCURACY? I thought not...



Lethality? With MK262 Mod1 ammo (77g. sierras), it is as deadly as one can get in a little .22 cal. bullet... And the other ammo choices are no slouch either WITH PLACEMENT discipline. Plus, you can carry lots more 223 than 308...

For reliability, I'd love to say I'd take my AK, but the ammo I have is older milsurp stuff and newer is Wolf, and neither would I want to bet my life on. Wolf is wolf, and the old stuff, who knows what hell it has been through... Until you hit the primer you never know, but so far it has all been 100% fire. I have enough mags but I don't have web gear to haul it properly... So all of that is a deal killer at this time...

Situations may change my choices, and like tools, I try to have a good assortment. Heck, situations may find my Mossberg 500 12g the best solution... You never know...

Rmpl

[Longhunter]

Ahh yes the old AR vs AK vs everything else discussion. I wish we had a campfire and some venison steaks to properly talk about this. Currently my shtf rifle is a Bushmaster M4. I bought this rifle and then put a rail system, eotech and few other goodies on it. I did it to replicate the rifle I use in the army and was already familiar with. I've only put about 2k rounds thru it and I can honestly say I can't recall having any malfunctions. However, I only shot 100-300 rds at a time and then gave the rifle a good cleaning after each range session.

My biggest complaint with most AR rifles is the round they shoot. The 223/556 is not a very proven manstopper. True it has been in service with the US military for over 40 years, but its lethality has always been questioned. Part of the problem is the 62 gr green tip round the military uses. The military is finally starting to come around with the introduction of the new SOST( Special Operations Science and Technologies) ammo originally designed for the FN SCAR. The 5.56 SOST ammo is a 62 gr open tip round similar to some civilian hunting rounds. Initail reports are that the SOST ammo is working well in Afghanistan. I don't think SOST ammo will be available on the civilian market anytime soon, if ever.Other ammo like Hornady TAP 75 gr, and as Rmplstlskn pointed out, Sierra 77 gr are good choices to consider using with the AR.

Here currently in Iraq I am using the MK 17 SCAR heavy. This is the 7.62x51 rifle made by FN. Before I deployed, a few teams from my unit were selected to use the MK 16(5.56) and MK 17(7.62)SCARs. After a only few months of limited fielding, the army is doing away with the MK16. This doesn't affect me as I am using the MK 17. I could go on and on about the SCAR rifles and how great both 5.56 and the 7.62 SOST ammo is, but suffice it to say that we are all pleased with the SCARs. But due to its price tag, I am not going to purchase one on my own anytime soon.

Which brings me back to the topic at hand. I am in the market for a new shtf rifle. Using the 7.62 round on this deployment has made me a big fan of it. In my past deployments I had an M4, and like I said before, with 62 gr green tip, it's not a manstopper. And 223/556 loses alot of its energy at ranges past 300 meters. I think I am going to keep my Bushmaster M4 because I already have ammo, mags, web gear, and spare parts for it, but I think it will be my wife's gun to use. She has shot it only a few times, but seemed comfortable with it. And with additional training she should become pretty good with it.

As for me I think I am going to get an M1A or an M1A scout squad. I have shot the M1A before and I really enjoyed it. Although it kicks like a mule, is too long, heavy and will get heavier every mile, something about it calls to me. It seems so American, I don't know, I can't really explain it. I have an M1 Garand and I love that rifle, so that might be the reason I want an M1A. Also I just aquired over 20 brand new M1A mags, so I am covered on mags if I get an M1A. Accuracy, reliability, fuctionality, and comforming with the KISS principle all seem to be possessed by the M1A. Don't get me wrong, I respect the AK. I am very familiar with it. I have shot it and been shot at by it off and on for the last 7 years, so I kinda have a love/hate relationship with the AK. It is reliable as its made out to be and in the right hands it is not as inaccurate as it is made out to be. I have also shot G3's, FN-FALs, Galils and quite a few others, but I think I've settled on the M1A. I've got the mags and web gear, and spare parts seem readily available. As far as being able to carry more 5.56 than 7.62, yes that's true but how many times do you want to have to shoot somebody? Once or twice, or 7 or 8?

If anyone has advice about the M1A that would be really appreciated. Thanks. Likewise if anyone has any SCAR questions I'll be happy to answer.

[Rmplstlskn]

As far as being able to carry more 5.56 than 7.62, yes that's true but how many times do you want to have to shoot somebody? Once or twice, or 7 or 8?

My comments on round counts on ones person relate to those who plan to BUG OUT in a SHTF event. These people will be on a long-term recon patrol essentially with no or questionable resupply plans. Besides all the gear needed to survive in the [insert your possible bug out location], they will need enough ammo to handle armies of mutant zombie bikers (lol!). Seriously though, they would need a full combat load, or more. This is where I would choose the 5.56 over the 7.62 in MY LOCATION of the world (heavily wooded & mountainous).

Too bad you can't bring back some 7.62 ammo. It is very expensive now days...

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

accidental double tap

[thereisnospoon]

I read somethig in a book once that said any rifle will do if the man behind it has spent the necessary time wringing it out. hat being said, this is a toug question...

I have 3 primary weapons/2 calibers.

My "Get Home Gun" is an old Ishapore Enfield rifle chambered in 7.62x51. It has ben properly shotened to 18" and had been configured as a scout rifle. It has a box magazine that holds 12rounds and I have a spare mag and strippers. Actually, the strippers are easier than swapping the mag. It wears a Leupold M8 2X IER scope. Ching sling. This gun is accurate out to about 400 yards and then begins to lose its Minute of bad guy.
However, it is not as threatening as a n evil black rifle and can be broken down very easily (remove the buttstock) to make it awfully small to transport.

My MBR is a SAIGA 7.62X51 S-308 22" barrel. It has been tried and tested through about 3000 rounds of training aqnd tac rifle matches. It is no fun to hump, but it turns cover into concealment real easy. Accurate to 300 meters (8" plates) when I do my job. 25 round mags from Surefire are monsters, but allow me to carry 100 rounds in my chest rig and 25 in the gun.

If you are looking for a 7.62X51 gun, don't overlook the SAIGA. MAny cmoplain about spare parts, but if you look, you can find what you need. IT's a hoot and packs a wallop.

My last is the old AR. It's around because the others have them and we can claim common caliber and all that fun stuff. If I have a choice it'll be the SAIGA everythime.

The wife likes the AR...

[Rmplstlskn]

My MBR is a SAIGA 7.62X51 S-308 22" barrel.

I like the Saiga a lot! If I didn't get such a good deal on the FAL that is what I would have gotten, then modd'ed it a bit to take away the import "sportarizations." Also, when I was eyeing one, the mags were hard to find... I hope it has gotten better... 7.62 in an AK action, what's not to like?

Rmpl

[Bearman202]

I had an AR-15, by Colt, and could not keep the thing from jamming, and I'm talking about a "break the thing down and find a rod to shove the old brass out" kind of jam. I sold it, and the guy that bought it actually got decent ammo and never had a problem. I decided that I wanted one that would eat whatever I found laying around, so the AR wasn't a good choice for me. I also owned an SKS, in 7.62x.39. It fed regularly, etc. but the accuracy was crap. The first shot was dead on, the second started drifting, and by the fourth shot, I generally knew the direction the round was going. I currently have a Cetme, although I haven't put a lot of rounds through it. My immediate, grab it and trust it, is a Hi Point 9mm carbine. This thing feeds whatever you throw at it, it's the same caliber as the handgun, and it just keeps banging. I'm not a huge fan of the 9mm round, but if it keeps me alive, that's close enough. The aftermarket 15 round mags are junk, though. I bought two of them, and neither were worth it. They don't load 15 rounds, and they don't feed well. The other thing about the Hi Point is that I took it out of the box, pointed it at the target, and hit the bullseye. Every time. I haven't tried it over any real range, but where I live, if you can see more than 100 yards, you're doing pretty good. i.e. lot of woods and brush.

[thereisnospoon]

Here's a video of the SAIGA in action at one of our local tac rifle matches...this is pre conversion. Currently it is converted to standard AK pistol grip conversion and wears an AK74 style break.

Magazines are easier to come by these days, but are ~45.00http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...S4010010-2.flv

[rice paddy daddy]

My background - my basic training and stateside issue weapon was the M14. I was issued an M16 for my all expense paid trip to that beautiful vacation spot of the Orient, Vietnam.
I collect military surplus weapons and clones ranging from Mauser 98k's to M1a's to Garands. But if the situation was dire, I'd grab my Romanian AK. The AK has proven itself under all conditions and all stages of neglect. Uneducated peasants can keep it running. The round has sufficient power. There is no downside.

[BigJohn]

I agree with choosing a weapon for reliability. It has to ALWAYS fire. Accuracy is almost not even a consideration with me. Any rifle or carbine will shoot "minute of bad guy" at 100 meters. I use an AKM with a folding stock. The most likely reason to fire a weapon is to stop an immediate attack at close range. Whatever you choose needs to be handy enough to have with you when you need it. That MBR back at home won't help, but a battle carbine under the car seat might. If you are planning for a long range sniper duel, the AKM is a poor choice, but for everything else it works fine.

[Boyd]

My background - my basic training and stateside issue weapon was the M14. I was issued an M16 for my all expense paid trip to that beautiful vacation spot of the Orient, Vietnam.
I collect military surplus weapons and clones ranging from Mauser 98k's to M1a's to Garands. But if the situation was dire, I'd grab my Romanian AK. The AK has proven itself under all conditions and all stages of neglect. Uneducated peasants can keep it running. The round has sufficient power. There is no downside.

going to have to second this, Romanian AK here also. It just plain works. And it has never failed, even with cheap ammo for target practice. Breaking the gun down is a snap, and its a beauty of wood and metal.