3 infection stories

[rockriver]

3 friends of mine. stories are all within the last 2months.

business man in town working in financial industry... average health about 58 y.o.
picks up a small mouse by the tail... mice is dazed but not dead.. heads out the door to throw mouse in yard.
mouse suddenly curls up and bites him at/under fingernail...
he tosses mouse. and goes to bathroom. wound is bleeding. he washes wound very good soap and hot water.
he soaks wound in alcohol trying to work alcohol into wound. then washes again.
no problem for over a week. then he gets a little puny. can't figure out why... self medicates... finally goes to
doctor. doctor figures he has some kind of infection and gives him medicine. man goes home. a few days later
he is real sick. goes to big hospital... he's forgotten all about mouse. they treat but he gets sicker... 105.5 temp.
nearly dies... ice bed etc.. they keep asking. do you hunt? have you been bitten by cat or dog or coon or cleaned a deer?
little progress... finally he remembers "mouse" and they adjust treatment... he lost a pile of weight.
---
delivery man for national company...
6'2" and works out. very strong. 34 y.o.
hunting with friends. tripped near pond and scratched hand... hand got wet...
not what I call a puncture at all. light scratch. near pad of palm. he cleaned it and washed it well.
started swelling and discomfort... finally went to doctor, got a shot.
went home and back to work swelling went down a little, then raced back...
to hospital this time... xrays saw ?? under bone. they cut into hand and found large infection area.
under bone... they increased size of cut to be able to dig out all infection and scraped bone.
then heavy medication.
he's improving rapidly.

1 year old baby
developed large swollen sore on side of neck. about half the size of orange.. couldn't turn head.
same story as above, but no incision. visit to doctor got medicine while in early stages of discomfort.
went back as swelling started.... many days in hospital with much medicine.
doctors saying "some kind of staff"
in this case there was no known scratch or bite. both parents work in offices and it's a clean home.


I'm thinking of ld3's post about what are prepared to do...
and applying his questions to these 3 situations that have popped up in my community to people that I know well.
I think the business man would have died.
I think the delivery man might have died. (looks like the infection had to have been ready to spread around his body.)
I think the baby would have died. it took hospital many days to get infection turned around.

rr

[610Alpha]

All scary situations that could be our reality in a SHTF/PAW scenario.

[xdpatriot]

All scary situations that could be our reality in a SHTF/PAW scenario.

This is exactly correct. Is there anyone on the forum that could give us a rundown on how to treat this in PAW? I'm assuming the finger would have to be amputated? What about the hand and the infant? Lance the abscess on the neck I'm assuming? Would the fish/animal antibiotics do anything for these infections? I don't know. Can anyone on here help?

[Rmplstlskn]

A very timely video from NutnFancy on his adventure with a MRSA infection...

[Dennis W]

This is exactly correct. Is there anyone on the forum that could give us a rundown on how to treat this in PAW? I'm assuming the finger would have to be amputated? What about the hand and the infant? Lance the abscess on the neck I'm assuming? Would the fish/animal antibiotics do anything for these infections? I don't know. Can anyone on here help?

If you get a copy of Armageddom Medicine by Doc Cindy, she covers a lot of different infections, and which medications to use, from the list that she recommends to stock. Dennis

[justanothergunnut]

I have been instructed that it is best to open the wound and remove the abscess complete in the sack or drain if needed. Of course antibiotics are almost a given though traditional methods of sugar or honey packing cant be excused outright. Ideally inject-able lidocaine and broad spectrum antibiotics such as rocephin should be kept for just such a emergency if you have access to them. As always knowledge is needed when dealing with such things and inject able antibiotics are not something you should just jump into. Any of the above mentioned cases are fairly straight forward to deal with as long as you have the knowledge and basic supplies of antibiotics and Lidocaine. Granted most of us dont so network and find those who do.... I would also suggest this article on wound packing
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1963638/

[justanothergunnut]

btw rocephin is available as a IV or IM injection... If you find it know that it burns like mad and reconstituting the powdered form using lidocaine is advisable. Granted Rocephin is no good for MRSA but,,, scratch your leg on the pig pen fence or watch the Sepsis run up your leg and inject able Rocephin WILL save your life....

[Rmplstlskn]

In PAW / WROL, I think maggot therapy on infected wounds has shown it's value clearly... Not looking forward to trying it, but I will not rule it out either... Pretty easy to grow maggots in a PAW abundance of garbage...

It is sad that people have so abused antibiotics that USA is so locked down on it. Wish we were more like Bahamas, Canada, and Mexico...

Rmpl

[rockriver]

as I read this and wonder how we kept from dying as kids.
pine cone fights... feeding hogs, cows, chickens, horses. around gradens, cutting wood for fireplace,
playing in streams, damming up streams, etc..
we had all kind of scratches and cuts. going barefoot all the time.
so.. my question is where do all these infections come from now??

also... what was purple stuff we put on horse or cow if they got cut bad on legs??
and what was the green bottle that we washed with or were supposed to wash with after getting "mat burns" in wrestling?
the intention of "green bottle" with white medicine was the consistency and color of hair conditioner?

I'd like to get some of both....
i may stop by the feed/seed store... that's where we got the purple stuff.
i think the green bottle was over the counter at the drugstore.

rr

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

is there anyone on the forum that could give us a rundown on how to treat this in PAW?

Not INTERNET research but... I recently had first hand (literally my hand) experience with MRSA without even knowing it.

What Happened:
I woke up one morning with a small "blister" on my hand... My first thought was a burn but later in the morning I had the sudden thought... "Wait I did not do anything to get burnt yesterday". It was only a little blister I ignored it and kept going. But the blister kept growing and a red ring (infection) formed around the edge of the blister during the day. I started thinking "Spider Bite". The next day my wife (a Hungarian girl) asked her mother (an old world farm woman) about it... We got on Skype so she could see it and she said... "Maybe its a Spider Bite but put some Vinegar on it". My wife got instructions on what and how to do what she was suggesting. Within hours the red ring (infection) was almost gone. I kept using the solution for the rest of the day and then the following day. The blister started to reduce in size slowly but the red ring reduced very quickly and went away with a day. A week later had a routine check up scheduled for the doctor... So I figured I would bring up my "Spider Bite"... I showed him the area... He stopped died in his tracks when he saw it... "That is/was MRSA. Normally that grows much bigger and takes much longer to fight off, usually requires major meds and even sometimes hospital visit". This MRSA in 24 hours had started off really small and grown to dime size eating a "hole" into the back side of my hand and now 4 months later still the "flesh" is not back to the same color/texture as the rest of the skin around area.

What worked for me:
Make a solution of 1 part Distilled Vinegar and 1 part Water (room temp). Wet a rag with the solution, wrap the rag around infected. Keep the rag wet with the solution and coving infected area until redness is gone. But there is flesh that is dead and gone already so expect a nasty looking "wound" for several weeks.

This is just what worked for me... I hope you never need it...

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Not INTERNET research but... I recently had first hand (literally my hand) experience with MRSA without even knowing it.

What Happened:
I woke up one morning with a small "blister" on my hand... My first thought was a burn but later in the morning I had the sudden thought... "Wait I did not do anything to get burnt yesterday". It was only a little blister I ignored it and kept going. But the blister kept growing and a red ring (infection) formed around the edge of the blister during the day. I started thinking "Spider Bite". The next day my wife (a Hungarian girl) asked her mother (an old world farm woman) about it... We got on Skype so she could see it and she said... "Maybe its a Spider Bite but put some Vinegar on it". My wife got instructions on what and how to do what she was suggesting. Within hours the red ring (infection) was almost gone. I kept using the solution for the rest of the day and then the following day. The blister started to reduce in size slowly but the red ring reduced very quickly and went away with a day. A week later had a routine check up scheduled for the doctor... So I figured I would bring up my "Spider Bite"... I showed him the area... He stopped died in his tracks when he saw it... "That is/was MRSA. Normally that grows much bigger and takes much longer to fight off, usually requires major meds and even sometimes hospital visit". This MRSA in 24 hours had started off really small and grown to dime size eating a "hole" into the back side of my hand and now 4 months later still the "flesh" is not back to the same color/texture as the rest of the skin around area.

What worked for me:
Make a solution of 1 part Distilled Vinegar and 1 part Water (room temp). Wet a rag with the solution, wrap the rag around infected. Keep the rag wet with the solution and coving infected area until redness is gone. But there is flesh that is dead and gone already so expect a nasty looking "wound" for several weeks.

This is just what worked for me... I hope you never need it...

Okay, I treat MRSA often. If your doc just looked at the wound and did no culture there is NO way he/she can tell if it was MRSA. I have seen many patients, and I mean many, over the years that were "told" they had MRSA. They were sent directly to my office as a work in the same day. I do a culture and lo and behold, no MRSA. Many docs, unfortunately, look at wounds, give broad spectrum abx and say "oh, it looks like it could be MRSA". Luckily, the abx given were broad enough to cover the infection and every thing worked out fine.

NYP...yours sounds like it could have been a spider bite, possibly brown recluse as that will produce a red ring around the wound sometimes. It usually also has some tissue necrosis, which could be what you described as that "dime sized hole". Many times spider bites will have a secondary bacterial infection associated with it. The vinegar soaks will disrupt the pH so the bacteria does not have a nice place to live and ends up dying off.


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[Patriotic Sheepdog]

3 friends of mine. stories are all within the last 2months.

business man in town working in financial industry... average health about 58 y.o.
picks up a small mouse by the tail... mice is dazed but not dead.. heads out the door to throw mouse in yard.
mouse suddenly curls up and bites him at/under fingernail...
he tosses mouse. and goes to bathroom. wound is bleeding. he washes wound very good soap and hot water.
he soaks wound in alcohol trying to work alcohol into wound. then washes again.
no problem for over a week. then he gets a little puny. can't figure out why... self medicates... finally goes to
doctor. doctor figures he has some kind of infection and gives him medicine. man goes home. a few days later
he is real sick. goes to big hospital... he's forgotten all about mouse. they treat but he gets sicker... 105.5 temp.
nearly dies... ice bed etc.. they keep asking. do you hunt? have you been bitten by cat or dog or coon or cleaned a deer?
little progress... finally he remembers "mouse" and they adjust treatment... he lost a pile of weight.
---
delivery man for national company...
6'2" and works out. very strong. 34 y.o.
hunting with friends. tripped near pond and scratched hand... hand got wet...
not what I call a puncture at all. light scratch. near pad of palm. he cleaned it and washed it well.
started swelling and discomfort... finally went to doctor, got a shot.
went home and back to work swelling went down a little, then raced back...
to hospital this time... xrays saw ?? under bone. they cut into hand and found large infection area.
under bone... they increased size of cut to be able to dig out all infection and scraped bone.
then heavy medication.
he's improving rapidly.

1 year old baby
developed large swollen sore on side of neck. about half the size of orange.. couldn't turn head.
same story as above, but no incision. visit to doctor got medicine while in early stages of discomfort.
went back as swelling started.... many days in hospital with much medicine.
doctors saying "some kind of staff"
in this case there was no known scratch or bite. both parents work in offices and it's a clean home.


I'm thinking of ld3's post about what are prepared to do...
and applying his questions to these 3 situations that have popped up in my community to people that I know well.
I think the business man would have died.
I think the delivery man might have died. (looks like the infection had to have been ready to spread around his body.)
I think the baby would have died. it took hospital many days to get infection turned around.

rr

rr,
Case one I would be thinking Hantavirus. More info here. http://www.cdc.gov/hantavirus/hps/diagnosis.html
Tough to treat...

Case two this may have been from the fall and he had a deep infection form. The treatment here is surgical debridement. You have to de-bulk the dead tissue that is infected and many times have big time IV abx.

Case three sounds, from your description, as an abscess. If it was then an incision and drainage and abx, possibly IV abx, would be directed based on the culture results from the I&D done.

Prevention will be the key to prevent serious problems in the PAW. There will be cuts, and burns that will seem minor to many that will lead to their demise. The medical person in the group will need to be informed of ALL scratches, bumps, lumps, cuts, etc. and if appropriate, abx will need to be started early. Early cleansing and/or debridement can/will be helpful. The cleansing and/or debridement may need to be done more than once and deep debridement may require some form of local anesthesia for the patient comfort. You may think "I can take the pain" but when you have a deep infection or an abscess that need to be lanced, squeezed, drained and packed maybe more than once you will wish you had some lidocaine.

Stock up on oral antibiotics now while you can. Get polysporin, Neosporin, Betadine, hydrogen peroxide and bacitracin as well. Have lots of bandaids, sterile 2x2s and 4x4s. Have gloves, sterile and non-sterile. Have scalpel blades, number 11 and number 15 will do most of what needs to be done. Have tissue forceps, hemostats, surgical scissors and/or surgical tray for performing minor surgical tasks. The scalpel blades are really sharp and when tissue debridement needs to be done the scalpel blades will cut quickly. Have alcohol to cleanse the areas you are working in as you will need a clean place and have a clean room for medical care. Best thing is to hook up with a medical guy/gal that do some of these things.

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[rockriver]

patriotic,
2 of the best posts I've seen
anywhere on any forum.
thank you.
these 3 events I listed were a jolt to the danger
and seriousness that we face if there's a "breakdown" in society.

[rockriver]

folks
I went to sheepdogs reference link.
in addition to a description of treatment there was a "how do you get it" section.


--------
How People Get Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome (HPS)



Where HPS is Found

Cases of HPS occur sporadically, usually in rural areas where forests, fields, and farms offer suitable habitat for the virus's rodent hosts. The peridomestic setting (for example, barns, outbuildings, and sheds) are potential sites where people may be exposed to the virus. In the US and Canada, the Sin Nombre hantavirus is responsible for the majority of cases of HPS. The host of the Sin Nombre virus is the deer mouse (Peromyscus maniculatus), present throughout the western and central US and Canada.

Several other hantaviruses are capable of causing HPS in the US. The New York hantavirus, hosted by the white-footed mouse, is associated with HPS cases in the northeastern US. The Black Creek hantavirus, hosted by the cotton rat, is found in the southeastern US.

Cases of HPS have been confirmed elsewhere in the Americas, including Canada, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Panama, Paraguay, and Uruguay.

How Humans Become Infected with HPS





Can pets transmit HPS to humans?



The hantaviruses that cause HPS in the United States are not known to be transmitted by any types of animals other than certain species of rodents. Dogs and cats are not known to carry hantavirus; however, they may bring infected rodents into contact with people if they catch such animals and carry them home. Guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, and rodents from pet stores are not known to carry hantavirus.

In the United States, deer mice (along with cotton rats and rice rats in the southeastern states and the white-footed mouse in the Northeast) are the reservoir of the virus. The rodents shed the virus in their urine, droppings, and saliva. The virus is mainly transmitted to people when they breathe in air contaminated with the virus.

When fresh rodent urine, droppings, or nesting materials are stirred up, tiny droplets containing the virus get into the air. This process is known as "airborne transmission".

There are several other ways rodents may spread hantavirus to people:

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Hantavirus is to be taken seriously. It can have devastating results.

Something I forgot to list are masks. These should be worn when working in areas that mice/rats are know to inhabit. Gloves as well.


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