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  • Penicillin

    Dunno if this one's common knowledge, but it's a trick I learned awhile back. If you are in a SHTF situation, antibiotics are going to be nearly impossible to come by. There's a way you can get yourself a culture of penicillin mold for extreme situations.

    First, get some wheat bread, tear it into chunks, and sterilize it with your pressure cooker/canner. It'll get pretty soggy, but shouldn't fall apart. Takes about 15 minutes at temperature.

    Put it into a jar, and take it to your bedroom once it's cooled down. Hold it over the bed while the kids jump on it (or for the lack of kids, bang on the bed). What you're looking for is penicillium chrysogenum, which just happens to be found in large numbers (among other things you don't want to know about) in most beds in America. Put a paper filter (coffee filter) or some other filter with holes small enough to catch particulate, and large enough to allow the culture to "breath" and set the bread aside to mold.

    Once you have some good mold going, make yourself a few simple petri dishes. (Chicken broth / gelatin, plenty of instructions online.) Any small bowl or dish can be used so long as it can be sterilized, and covered in a sterile manner. Doesn't hurt to actually purchase some real petri dishes to have on hand for all sorts of medical stuff. Some of these dishes keep clean, and the other ones, rub your finger on your face, sides of the nose, arm pits, etc. and touch to some of the petri dishes. Keep those in a dark warm (85-90ish area) to cook for a few days and go back to check them.

    Now, right now is the time to snag some pictures of what Staphylococcus looks like in a petri dish so you can identify it. Print those pictures out, or memorize them. Staph is common on everyone, and it's a gram positive bacteria which makes it susceptible to penicillin. If you're a nerd like me, you'll also have a microscope and gram stain kit handy to verify. At any rate, identify your staph cultures, and start sterilizing some toothpicks, or if you've got it, make some tiny wire "loops" to sterilize. (Wire loops are easier since you can sterilize them with any non-sooting flame.)

    If you're a week into the process, you should have some pretty good stuff going on with the bread. If you see some mold growing that has a whiter "outside" with a blu-green "inside" that's a good candidate for your penicillium chrysogenum. It may have some orange droplets in the middle too. The problem is that a lot of your penicilliums can look similar and the wrong ones simply won't help you at all.

    Now, take some choice cultures from a few different of the "cultures" you have growing in your bread (using the loop or sterile toothpick) and place a half dozen "wads" of it (doesn't need to be much larger than a pin head) on one side of your petri dish. Space them out so they pretty evenly cover half. Using a different sterile loop, take a small dab of the Staph and place it in a few places on the other half, mirroring the first.

    Do this for any cultures you think might be penicillium chrysogenum. Stick the whole mess (should have at least half a dozen petri dishes) into your incubator area and let them grow.

    Now, the penicillin is NOT the mold. Instead, it's what the mold "poops" into the medium. So you are not looking for mold that just takes over the entire dish. That doesn't tell you anything, so you do want to check these every 24 hours. What you're looking for is a place where the mold is growing, and in the space BETWEEN the mold and bacterial growth, you see the bacteria receding well before the mold reaches it. This is your penicillin producing mold.

    Now, take some MORE bread, sterilize it, and KEEP IT STERILE. Introduce JUST some of the penicillium chrysogenum mold to the bread and allow that to grow (making sure it's kept covered/sterile) until it "eats up" the bread and turns into a powdery gunk in the bottom of the jar. That powdery gunk is penicillium chrysogenum spores. Again, being careful not to contaminate it, use a sterile screen or sieve to filter out just the spores into a sterile funnel, and pour into a sterile jar. Wear a respirator for this step, then ventilate the area afterwards. While penicillin mold spores are perfectly safe to eat, breathing them: not so much. Keep in mind they'll also be VERY light, so you need a NON ventilated area to coax them into the funnel/bottle.

    NOW...

    Now that you have isolated your emergency penicillium chrysogenum spores, when you find yourself in need of a penicillin dose, you're already too late. (Sorry.) The spores by themselves are useless. Again, the penicillin is in the poop. BEFORE the emergency comes, you want to take a small flask of sterilized broth (not chicken broth, though I'd imagine that would work too. You want something with citric acid (orange juice) and maybe even some sugar in it. Experiment here, because I haven't done much past this point yet.) Add a small amount of the spores (making sure to keep everything as sterile as humanly possible) and let that cook in your incubator for about a week. The more surface area the mold has to grow on, the better. (ie: Your flask can be a small jar laid on its side)

    After a week's worth of growth, the broth itself is going to be filled with penicillin. The problem here, though, is we have NO idea what dosage it's at, and no way to test it. This is where I tend to get hung up. You can put a drip of it in a petri dish with bacteria and watch it kill it off, but it still doesn't tell me if we're looking at 5mg or 500mg.

    This liquid can be frozen, then vacuum sealed and kept almost indefinitely (if kept frozen). It also tastes horrible. (Imagine how penicillin pills taste. Now imagine if you ground those up and drank them as tea.) You can try adding honey and water to it to dilute it, but it'll still taste like mold poop.

    With a sick person, start with half an ounce in the morning to see if they react. If by noon they're still okay, raise it by half an ounce every 6 hours until you're up to 3 ounces. Continue to give 3 ounces every 6 hours. If no improvement is seen on the third day, raise the dosage to 5 ounces. If by the 6th day, still no improvement, go to 8 ounces. If that doesn't kill them, then the disease probably will. Get a priest.

    Once the person has gotten better, you MUST KEEP GIVING THEM the dosage every 6 hours for 3 more days. If the illness recedes and you stop the dosage before it's dead, it will not only return but could have developed a resistance in the meantime.

    Needless to say, you should ONLY attempt this in a SHTF situation. You have no way of knowing what the reaction to unprocessed penicillin will be, or how much of a dose you're giving the person (it will be different with every batch, too).

    As a side-note, some of the isolated mold growing on wheat bread can also be eaten (the mold itself is harmless) for an absolute emergency need it now situation, but the dosage on that is even harder to measure. It can also be used in a bandage for an infected cut.

    Needless to say, if you actually try this, and kill yourself, don't blame me. This should only be attempted in a situation where there's no lawyers left.

    Penicillin is very strong against most gram positive bacteria (which are the most common, fortunately.) While it is considerably weaker against gram negative bacteria, in high enough doses it CAN work against them. If you're allergic to penicillin, make sure not to get hurt.
    Last edited by Guest; 08-16-2011, 01:08 PM.

  • #2
    absolutely horrible terrible awful advice! Sorry but it would be much safer to simply have some on hand especially if as in your situation there is a freezer available. If a person has all the ingredients to make the "penicillin" as called for in the recipe there is no reason there should not be a source to get penicillin to begin with.

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    • #3
      I appreciate your input and what appears to be some good research. You must have some chemistry or bio-chem experience.

      Problems I see with this though are;

      You will need to be very careful in making this as to NOT introduce other contaminates.
      It is not a easy thing to do. Think about the labs that have to make meds. For most, that will be way too complicated for most people to get it right.
      You state that it can be frozen. In a PAW there may not be a freezer.
      Not knowing the dose, you could start developing a resistance from the get go.
      Not knowing the dose you could be creating an overdose from the get go.

      It would be much easier to obtain some Amoxicillin or Ampicillin if you are looking for a "penicillin". The U.S. federal government tested representative lots of selected medications for extended stability. Of the antibiotics tested, all passed assays for stability, potency, and appearance for at least a year beyond the original expiration date. If you look at the link you will see that Amoxicillin and Ampicillin was good from 23-49 months passed their expiration date. Thats 2-4 years. Of course in a multi-generational PAW, all bets are off as meds will truely expire....and so will people to infections at that point.

      Just my thoughts....
      Protecting the sheep from the wolves that want them, their family, their money and full control of our Country!

      Guns and gear are cool, but bandages stop the bleeding!

      ATTENTION: No trees or animals were harmed in any way in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were really ticked off!

      NO 10-289!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        I appreciate your input and what appears to be some good research. You must have some chemistry or bio-chem experience.
        Indeed I do.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        Problems I see with this though are;
        You will need to be very careful in making this as to NOT introduce other contaminates.
        As most cillium molds tend to be antibacterial to start with, your risk of contaminants is remarkably low, mitigated with the sterilization processes easily accomplished with a campfire and pressure cooker.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        It is not a easy thing to do. Think about the labs that have to make meds. For most, that will be way too complicated for most people to get it right.
        Again, I attempt to show here how the "labs" could quite easily be made in a home kitchen with low ventilation.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        You state that it can be frozen. In a PAW there may not be a freezer.
        Agreed. My thoughts here are when a freezer is not available, one MAY have the time to create these (if the spores are pre-prepped) to save their loved one regardless. The freezers only make it easier.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        Not knowing the dose, you could start developing a resistance from the get go.
        Fortunately, not true. A single generational round of antibiotics will not/cannot cause rapid resistance formation in bacteria. This requires months if not years of generation resistance building. My caution in preventing the resistance isn't so much for the individual, but rather for who they may pass it on to.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        Not knowing the dose you could be creating an overdose from the get go.
        Again, fortunately not true. This is why I start with 1/2 an ounce. At 1/2 an ounce, chances are you'd be closer to the 50mg range, 100 tops. Thus the reason you work up to the 300 mg. range. Experimentation will dial in exactly where you are. With Penicillin, you have a MASSIVE range before you have to worry about overdose. Despite the bad information from soccer moms on the internet, you can take over 10x the recommended dose with no adverse effects. There's literally NO risk of overdose unless you're already allergic.

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        It would be much easier to obtain some Amoxicillin or Ampicillin if you are looking for a "penicillin".
        Originally posted by dilli View Post
        absolutely horrible terrible awful advice! Sorry but it would be much safer to simply have some on hand especially if as in your situation there is a freezer available. If a person has all the ingredients to make the "penicillin" as called for in the recipe there is no reason there should not be a source to get penicillin to begin with.
        If you have such easy access to large amounts of antibiotics, then I am quite happy for you, and have no doubt that the both of you will live quite happily when SHTF. Personally, I have found it quite difficult to lay hands on bulk amounts of prescription medications in order to prep, and apparently quite stupidly thought that people may have an interest in knowing how to make such things on their own should they be unavailable. Please do reveal your sources of said stable supplies of antibiotics, enough to last for years for entire communities for the benefit of us all!

        Originally posted by Patriotic Sheepdog View Post
        Certainly! I'm glad you're so optimistic that amoxi will be widely available after SHTF!

        Good luck! Obviously, based on the only responses here, I need to keep my "tid-bits" to myself.
        Last edited by Guest; 08-17-2011, 03:14 AM.

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        • #5
          Any on-line vet supply company sells many antibiotics without a prescription. Safest are the pill/tablet forms which according to my doc, several vets over the years and many RNs are made by the same drug companies, on the same "lines", with the exact same ingredients and standards are the "human" products, but for at least 1/2 the price. Vac-pack the bottles of meds, toss in the freezer and extend the "shelf-life" by many years. An alternative is to just make up lots of Echanecia tincture which stores in a cool dark place for many, many years and is an extremely good antibiotic internally. The biggest safety concern is KNOWING what needs to be treated when rather than just gulping antibiotics for every little thing that comes around.

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          • #6
            Interesting. Javin, can you take pictures of the process as you go along? If you can perfect this, you should be able to trade the home made cillin for anything you need in the PAW.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by monkeybird View Post
              Interesting. Javin, can you take pictures of the process as you go along? If you can perfect this, you should be able to trade the home made cillin for anything you need in the PAW.
              Yeah a video of it would be really cool also.

              I remember some science project in an old science book we got for the boy that had something similar to this. I think it requires oranges or something also IIRC.
              Boris- "He's famous, has picture on three dollar bill!"

              Rocky- "Wow! I've never even seen a three dollar bill!"

              Boris- "Is it my fault you're poor?"

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              • #8
                thanks Javin, but i will continue using my all natural and safe, grown by the creator medicines. I have had great luck with them in the past and see no reason why they will not work in the future if in fact I may need them. Playing with mold on bread is just not my cuppa tea and not something I will ever attempt nor would I attempt to explain to others how it can be done it is too risky even in a shtf situation..

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                • #9
                  If you want to keep chewing on roots (since that worked so well for the 10 million years up to the discovery of penicillin) then by all means, GO AHEAD. But do NOT come in here spewing vitriol. If you want to debate the values of chewing grass over modern medicine, then by all means let's. There's a right way, and a wrong way to disagree with someone who is taking their time to try and HELP others with information. If you actually were EDUCATED on the subject you would know that the risks are minimal, and when your other option is death, I think some people would be thankful for the knowledge. If you're not one of those people, I honestly don't care. But your post was unacceptable. It was offensive, attacking, incorrect, ignorant, and poorly punctuated. And you managed it all in only 3 sentences.

                  Originally posted by dilli View Post
                  thanks Javin, but i will continue using my all natural and safe, grown by the creator medicines.
                  Soooooo I can surmise by this that the devil must have made penicillin... Gotcha. Call me a satanist.
                  Last edited by Guest; 08-17-2011, 12:11 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Sorrrry! I read this ..." Personally, I have found it quite difficult to lay hands on bulk amounts of prescription medications in order to prep,..." and thought you might be interested in places TO purchase said medications. There are also many weekend and longer Survival medical training seminars available being taught my M.D. knowledgable in that particular field who, at the end of the seminars, will write prescriptions for any medication they feel would be beneficial to have on hand EXCEPT the controlled substance pain meds. There is also a local doctor here in the "boonies" of the Ozarks who, after he knows you and your capabilities, will also write script for stocking up. Resources are currently available, sometimes hard to ferret out though. As far as herbal preps go, the original pharmacopia of the US medicine, before antibiotics, WAS herbal preparations, their use and dosages, i.e. Kings Dispensitory and and several others, so herbs DO have value when used appropriately, just as antibiotics when used appropriately.

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                    • #11
                      I appologize, goatlady. Dilli got me spun up and I mowed you down too. For that, I appologize.

                      I actually hadn't heard of doctors giving "prep prescriptions." I'll have to see if I can't get in with some local preppers that know one that does. Specifically, I'd like to keep some insulin and some epinephrine on hand as well. While nobody in my family is diabetic, I'm pretty much planning on prepping for half the community, and these are things that *can't* be made at home. Even the antibiotics still scare me. My "recipe" can produce near medical grade oral antibiotics, but what about acute septicemia? A completely realistic possibility, and something that will need more than some mold-poop tea. Even the common bacteria that are floating around (such as MRSA) are penicillin resistant, to the point of being nearly immune. My recipe is definitely a "better than nothing" solution, but if it's possible to get your hands on a stockpile of medical grade prescriptions, that'd be worth its weight in gold. Indeed, a good store of insulin, cipro, some ringers, and the items necessary for a small hospital, squirreled away and not brought out of storage until a year into the PAW would make you a very important person indeed. With that, my second worst fear would be eliminated. In my veterinary experience, I've done literally thousands of surgeries (and never lost an animal) while also cross training as a combat medic, so there I'm quite confident. The next problem becomes anesthesia. (Third on my list.) My primary fear, of course, is just the masses of people themselves that would immediately revert to murder to take what they want, and even more frighteningly, how to identify which of your neighbors are on that list... One of the reasons I'm so glad I found this forum is because I can't TALK about any of this with anyone I know. There's literally nobody (other than PilloTox) that I would trust enough to even let them KNOW that there's (going to be) a stockpile at my house. Hell, I'm afraid to even tell people I'll keep bees.

                      Originally posted by goatlady View Post
                      As far as herbal preps go, the original pharmacopia of the US medicine, before antibiotics, WAS herbal preparations, their use and dosages, i.e. Kings Dispensitory and and several others, so herbs DO have value when used appropriately, just as antibiotics when used appropriately.
                      Indeed, I would even consider penicillin an "herbal prep." (It is, afterall, just mold poop.) But along those lines, I've also been looking into the wormwood and mandrake tinctures that were used as powerful anesthetics (though neither are easily available in the U.S.) thousands of years ago. Modern medicine has focused so much on opiates as anesthetics that trying to find anything else is proving futile. I suppose there's always the sleeper hold... O.o

                      Needless to say, one of my "trades" in the PAW will be reversion back to my medical days, but I'm finding that, more and more, "modern medicine" is completely, and totally dependent on the "grid." Currently we have straight-out cures for 16,000 diseases. We have supportive treatment that can save lives the majority of the time for another 45,000. When SHTF we're going to have treatments for about 16 (and most of those are bacterial STDs). That scares the hell out of me.
                      Last edited by Guest; 08-17-2011, 01:19 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Alright, this thread is closed. I'll leave it up to PSD if he wants to reopen it (Medical Forum SuperModerator).

                        We can disagree without being disagreeable, or worse.
                        Boris- "He's famous, has picture on three dollar bill!"

                        Rocky- "Wow! I've never even seen a three dollar bill!"

                        Boris- "Is it my fault you're poor?"

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