Have you prepared for 1 year after batimes, medically?

[eeyore]

I have given this some thought, it might be great to have a million bandages, but has anyone given any real thought into what to do if you had to operate without anesthesia, i know if i had to i could do what it takes, but why make it "if you had too".

What made me think of it (this time) was an article i saw today "Amputations without anesthesia in NKorea"

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100715/D9GVCNNO0.html

This is a country pretty modern, part are still third world, but what do you think it will be like here, there will be the privileged (or they think they are) that will have stuff like anesthesia, and almost the rest will not (if you have made no preps).

Are there alternatives (that are legal)?

Maybe i'm naive.

[Sanction]

Well I'll tell you, If I had to have an amputation with out anesthesia, I would want to be knocked out cold. But this does cause a direct path to shock. These sort of things are tough for most to talk about. People get squeamish just watching a chicken get chopped for dinner, not to mention the sculling and plucking required. Living a remote life will take fortitude. I hope people will suck it up and discuss this topic as it is important.

[Lowdown3]

Great idea for a thread guys! Good job!

Amputation without anesthesia? Ouch, hurts just reading it.... Guillotine anyone? :)

[Sanction]

I would think a guillotine would be humane compared to using a bone saw. Worse yet a wood saw which we all seem to have.
I do have a model of a guillotine I have yet to finish putting together.

[Lowdown3]

You know those loppers, manual branch clipper thingees that are used to trim branches? Some of the smaller bones in the body would likely fit. Leave enough meat to make a stump and only consider if you have enough GOOD antibiotics. Course if it's that or dying of infection anyways??

[Sanction]

Oh the PAIN!
Use a chipper? That would be like cutting the lim a whole bunch of times. Chipping away till the bad area is gone..
I think I'm gonna get sick...

[road warrior762]

The thing about this is there are usually expiration dates on things like this.so you cant just buy some and let it sit like rice.You need to update your med supplies all the time. its one thing to eat some wasnt suppose to be yellow rice and its another to take a pill or something thats a different color than normal.

[Lowdown3]

Oh the PAIN!
Use a chipper? That would be like cutting the lim a whole bunch of times. Chipping away till the bad area is gone..
I think I'm gonna get sick...

Not a chipper- we aren't interrogating him!! LOL

The yard tool that looks like a big pair of scissors- people use them to cut small branches, etc.

[eeyore]

Something like this

[Lowdown3]

Exactly.

Sorry for the thread drift also.

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

A lot goes into doing an amputation and I do not recommend it to someone without appropriate medical training. The following is for educational purposes and so you know that using medicines (even P.A.W.) can lead to significant problems. Heck, even when used appropriately they can cause significant problems. Following the advice in this post could cause severe, unfortunate consequences including death. Now, in an austere environment doing the best you can with what you have is maybe all you you can do. I would not recommend following this advice except in austere environment like in a P.A.W. Sorry for the disclaimer, but I don't want to get sued by someone searching the web and finding this post and says...Billybob, hold still...I got something I want to try.

A few thoughts on anesthesia are (1) general anesthetics, (2) local, (3) maybe both or (4) oral meds. General will be hard to find in the P.A.W. I believe. These are highly controlled substances for a reason. Ketamine is used in the vet world, so maybe this could be found...but do you know how to use it??? Local could be Lidocaine with or without epinephrine, Procaine, Marcaine, etc. This could be injected locally to help reduce the pain from the scalpel, but patient would likely feel some pain the deeper you go, so more may need to be injected. Know the toxic levels for these meds and where it is being injected. Believe it or not, Benadryl for injection can be used for a local injection, but it carries risks as well. Dilute 1mL of Benadryl 50mg/mL with 9mL of normal saline for injection. Now this does cause more pain on injection and can also cause tissue death where injected. Oral meds may help to dull the patients senses to the pain, but of course there are side effects as well. These could include narcotics, xanax type meds, alcohol, and even cocaine. Cocaine used to be used for anesthesia many years ago.
Of course having a scalpel is helpful and knowing and planning what you are going to do will shorten the time you need for anesthetics. As LD3 elluded to, the surgery is only the first part. Without the appropriate antibiotic(s), post op pain control and proper wound care, your patient may not pull through. Plan well. The bone need to be trimmed up higher and enough skin and muscle needs to be left to create a stump. There will be arteries and veins that will need to be tied off to control bleeding, so care should be taken when cutting into the extremity. It may be better to leave an extensive procedure like this to the medical team at your retreat.

[monkeybird]

Actually, mandrake and cocaine has been used for centuries for anesthesia. However, I don't know the legalities of growing either plant. Ether is also a 'natural' anesthesia and can be easily made.

I don't know how to do this, but it would seem to be an avenue of investigation for when TSHTF.

Anyone growing botanicals for medical purposes?

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

In a true SHTF society what is illegal now may be legal. Problem is that those that become "the authorities" may deem it illegal. If one decides to grow either in a SHTF society for medical purposes, I would do so on the QT.

I believe ether is still used in some other countries as the main anesthesia today. It works and it is inexpensive. However, there are some negatives as well. It is extremely flammable. The combustion point is less than boiling. That makes anything really hot a potential ignition source. You would also need to be aware of nausea and vomiting when using this as an ansthesia as well. Suction equipment would be a must. It may be a viable alternative in a PAW.

I did not know ether was easily made. I agree, monkeybird, that this requires investigation.