Which one

[Lowdown3]

Which of these verses sounds more like the "rapture?"

And He shall send his angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Or

After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Not starting trouble, just looking for some insight on this.

[Hawkeye]

The first one if I am understanding your question right. The second is but a small part of a larger "behind the scenes" glimpse of the Rapture.

[eeyore]

The second one, i have always understood to be a supporting text (Rev. 4:1) for the "rapture". John being "beloved" a type of the church.

[610Alpha]

I agree the first verse sounds more along the lines of "rapture" than the second verse.

[rockriver]

this is just me... not being presented as the program for anyone else.
--
i must read all or any of the scriptures slowly, carefully, literally.
have i been told that this scripture means... so and so..
well is that what it actually says?
if not,, then i should read more - above and below.. again.. slowly, carefully, literally.
--
God bless.
we are in an awesome time!

[monkeybird]

Lowdown - please explain your belief in the Rapture. There is some discussion about pre-tribulation - tribulation - and post tribulation Rapture. I have don't have the knowledge base to support any of them. Just about everyone I know believes in the pre-tribulation Rapture. However, I tend to want to research the issue instead of accepting anyones statements as fact without the evidence.

[1Admin]

Matthew 24 is where you'll find the first verse listed above, towards the end of the chapter, after all the bad stuff.

The second quote is from Revelation 4 wherein John is transported to heaven to see the vision, then later sees things happening on earth also, etc.

The pre trib rapture is a relatively new (1800's) concept to my understanding. Everyone needs to study the Scriptures for themselves. If I'm wrong on my timing, well I have a backup plan that should keep me from having to accept the mark to get health care, food, etc. If those planning for a pre-trib rapture are wrong and have no preps, they are going to be in for a terrible 42 months.

I'll be clear here, I HOPE it is a pre-trib rapture/harpazo/snatching up, etc. Never said I didn't believe in a rapture, it's the timing that's always been in question.

And who are those souls of those beheaded for the witness of Christ during the tribulation if the Spirit has been removed (and us) from the world? Who will witness to them without the Holy Spirit?

Again I want to be clear, no one is arguing, just trying to stimulate thought.

In Him,

[1Admin]

We know their will be some sort of "rapture" in that the Lord Himself tells us that He is going to prepare a place for us and He will return for us.

Is their 2 comings or 3 comings? If He comes for us before anything bad happens (#2 coming) and then obviously again at the end wherein He defeats satan, false prophet, et al, wouldn't that be a THIRD coming then?

[monkeybird]

Having always been taught the the believers would join Jesus in the sky before the great tribulation, I believed it without question. However, as an adult, I could not help but wonder what made the insight of the 1800 minister who popularized the theory so right.

It began with a young girl in Scotland.

In 1830 in Port Glasgow, Scotland, Margaret Macdonald expressed her belief that scripture taught that Christians would be raptured, or translated, from the earth before the Great Tribulation. This is the first time that anyone in Christian history had distinguished two stages of the Second Coming: the first stage, in which Christians are taken out, and the second stage, in which Jesus returns to earth.

This was picked up by John Darby.

by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter. The new doctrine was not received unanimously.

Mr. Darby spread his belief through the U.S. and Canada.

Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston. These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century. Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine.

So, the who pre-tribulation doctrine was not believed until the mid 1800. Why not. What did these people find in the Bible, that thousands of other bible scholars did not after centuries of research?

That is why this so so hard for me. While raised a pre-trib I cannot entirely accept it. I guess I'm more of a post-trib.

[Rmplstlskn]

First, I have an issue with the word "rapture..." It is a loaded word with preconceptions and it exists NO WHERE in Scripture. It is only "derived" from one greek word... The preconceptions make it difficult to use properly...

John was taken "up in spirit," so he was indeed transported in a spiritual realm back and forth in time for him to have seen what he wrote about... YHWH is not bound by time, a form of movie reel, so no big grasp for me on that one... Technically, this is a "rapture..." As was Enoch and Elijah as well, I guess...

(Mat 24:22 KJVR) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If the ELECT are super secret taken out then why shorten the judgement?

(Mat 24:30 KJVR) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here comes the Messiah for his Reign... All the world sees it... The "gathered ELECT," first of the DEAD, then those that did not perish are then called up AT THE LAST TRUMP, just as Scripture has always taught... It is at THIS TIME that the Believers are TAKEN OUT of the way so Messiah can kicks some arse, sets foot upon Jerusalem and we begin the renewal...

So it seems there are MANY RAPTURES but only ONE TRANSFORMATION (flesh to angelic-type body)...

Rmpl

[Rmplstlskn]

If those planning for a pre-trib rapture are wrong and have no preps, they are going to be in for a terrible 42 months.

The below is my commentary based on my beliefs, so don't take it personally if your beliefs differ...

This is where I believe the "Great Falling Away" event will happen... As many "Believers," many in word only as they never were true to their faith, see certain events unfold before them, they will KNOW that they have been LIED TO, and they are going to be PISSED with a capital P and an exclamation point... Many will call for and dish out the DEATHS of those who they once called "brothers and sister of Christ" and "Pastor." Some have even told me that they can not love and worship a God that would have them and their families go through the Tribulation... It will be like a time never before on earth... And the peoples of the earth have seen some serious crud hit the fan before...

I also believe that "Space Aliens" may also play a role in the deception... If so, I don't know what they are, but they will preach "another Gospel" and lead "even the Elect" astray...

Then, if I make it through all that, I will look forward to teaching my fellow Believers about Sukkot, as very few even know what that means, as we prepare for the FIRST of many Sukkots in Jerusalem with the Messiah...

(Zec 14:16 KJVR) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Rmpl