Personal Tactics

[Bearman202]

Okay, this one may be a bit gruesome, so beware. I want to talk for a bit about tactics. Specifically, the approach to take when there is a group of people coming at you with evil intent. In the military, I was told that it's better to wound than to kill. I have mixed feelings about that. The thought was that if you kill someone, you take ONE person off the battlefield. If you wound someone, you take THREE people off the field. (One with the wound, and two to haul him away.)

The arguments:

If you kill him, you won't have to worry about seeing him tomorrow. This one has a lot of appeal. You will have the problem of disposal, but there are a lot of ways of dealing with that.

If you wound him, you are not only taking him and two others out of the fight for the day, you are adding stress to the bad guy's infrastructure as they will have to extend resources to take care of a non-productive member of their group. Additionally, how they take care of their wounded can have a dramatic effect on their morale. If they aren't too good about taking care of their wounded, it will affect the willingness of their members to take risks. The obvious downside to this one is that if you wound a bad guy, and his "friends" leave him, what do you do then? Do you spend YOUR resources nursing the guy? Do you have what it takes to finish him off? I actually heard that this is why the U.S. military opted for the .223. I do know that a LOT of military guys hated that round, mainly because it didn't have the outright stopping power of the .30 cal.

Let's hear some discussion on this one. I haven't totally decided, although I'm leaning heavily toward just killing them outright. I do like the idea of putting a hurt on them that the rest can watch for a while, though. If you can get them thinking enough, maybe they'll decide it's just not worth it and leave you alone.

[Hawkeye]

Okay, this one may be a bit gruesome, so beware. I want to talk for a bit about tactics. Specifically, the approach to take when there is a group of people coming at you with evil intent. In the military, I was told that it's better to wound than to kill. I have mixed feelings about that. The thought was that if you kill someone, you take ONE person off the battlefield. If you wound someone, you take THREE people off the field. (One with the wound, and two to haul him away.)

That one is an urban legend kind of thing. I was never told it in the military and no one I know (family and friends) was ever told that either. We were ALWAYS taught that you fire center mass of your target. It is also 100% false that the adoption of the 55gr M193 5.56mm round had ANYTHING to do with this idea.

As far as actually trying to do it, there is about a 98% chance that you not going to be able to intentionally try to wound someone in a dynamic life or death situation. If you do manage to try and do it, your chances of dying yourself will go up exponentially. There is no reason to try and "wound" someone. Bad guys dont nurse their buddies. They run off and leave them. Dont over think this. If you are in such perile that you need to fire a weapon at someone, you aim center mass of the target, and dont stop firing until they are no longer a threat.
Not trying to sound harsh, but what you are thinking of doing, is a very dangerous and unsound tactic to even contemplate, much less try and actually employ.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Pre SHTF wounding is not a good idea because of liability issues so sayeth my liar I mean lawyer. What makes you think zombies, criminals etc have the same scruples as soldiers and will carry their buddy of the battlefield under fire and not just keep coming at you? Put them down fast and hard. Again soldiers are restricted to ball ammo you are not, do what you think will meet your needs weather its 22, 30 or a 50 cal. I have no problem finshing the task at hand when a zombie attacks me or my family, soldiers, friends etc. however professionally/religiously I have been on the other side and had to render immediate medical aide until the paramedics showed up. Then he becomes their problem as he is no longer a threat and will be arrested so are we talking a home robbery or post SHTF?
Point blank - If you do not think you can kill without hesitation right now on someone who is going to harm you or yours then get rid of the firearm now and find a less than lethal option. The odds of you being so good you can just wound them in the heat of the battle is few and far between in reality I can tell you from experiance.

[rockriver]

good question.
i was hoping to see other replies before me.
my problem..
no training and not much more than a bb gun!

so.. lets just say someone was attacking my wife, and i had my best bb gun.. or sling shot!
i don't think i would feel confident to try to "just wound"
to protect my wife, i'd have to try to ping him at the biggest open spot.
--
last night, i friend explained how a monied farm expert, was leaving the big town near me and
moving out to the rural. he's concerned about riots and economic disruption.
today, i asked a well off, large farm owner /businessman about the land auction he'd had this year.
he explained that the econ. situation was looking bad. he'd sold off a % to pay off his debts.
and get his remaining land free of debt. he reminded me of a conversation we'd had about 5 years ago..
"everything we talked about that evening is happening." he said.
--
sorry for the disctraction, but folks are beginning to react and consider this and other related situations.
back to the "pinged" bad guy.
the one that was trying to do my wife harm...
hmm. i've decided, but ... i'll let other more trained and skilled
guys expound on their opinions.

[protus]

Okay, this one may be a bit gruesome, so beware. I want to talk for a bit about tactics. Specifically, the approach to take when there is a group of people coming at you with evil intent. )

.

do what your ROE states...shtf, non shtf and in peace.

in shtf i wont care if it takes 3,5, 20 guys to pull people off the field. My ROE states i protect me and mine.....i wont "aim" to make it any different!!


The type of shtf dictates how you use that ROE and how agressive you are in that! It will also vary per person, per preparedness plan and skill level!!

in a true, end all shtf there wont be a battefield in the means that many think, it will be our back yards, back 40 etc......i doubt a group of 8 will take 3 off to carry jethro to saftey!

ymmv,,,think about it...

[Rmplstlskn]

I use the example of Israelite warfare found in the Scriptures as my ROE. If an enemy comes against me, or I must move against him, I will aim to send him to his Creator for some final words.

I would question if shooting to wound is moral, unless there is a good reason for it.

Rmpl

[Patriot]

USMC trains "One shot one kill". No need to think when the decision has already been made by the force moving against you. EOTWAWKI dicates you protect you and yours so YOU live another day Your family is counting on you.

[Klayton]

Bearman I actually think you are mixing up multiple facts into one. Happens a lot, no biggy. So hear is what I know from my research.

5.56mm (.223) main reason of change over, weight and cost. Side bonus is the bullets uncanny ability to "tumble" after entering soft tissue.

Wound vs Kill shot. This was and is (shhh not suppose to talk about this-hehe) a sniper tactic more than guard or infantry tactic.
The idea behind it was as you stated, wound one take out three. But you forgot the rest: Wound one, take out three, waste as much resources as possible to try and save said "target". It was a "win by attrition" strategy. Demoralize Demoralize Demoralize, waste resources, waste manpower, waste time... and eventually the enemy surrenders via attrition.

That being said, unless your playing sniper, do NOT waste your time trying to wound. The precious moments wasted trying to hit a leg vs aiming center mass can be what causes your life.

If your incoming numbers are not too great, you should center mass for fast targetting (again time and number are key variables) headshots are for the win... Let me explain, how many of you have Level IIIA in your survival gear? If you get a tap to center mass and instinctively drop, you are no longer the primary target and the shooter moves onto the next still standing target. But you are not "down for the count" and from a modified hasty prone position you level your rifle and start throwing rounds down range. From what the bad guy thought was a "neutralized" target.

Again, center mass for speed (and people already know their marksmanship skills are sub par). But a nice headshot guarantees a bodybag.

Now, one also has to read the situation at hand. If your in concealment all alone at your OP, and you see the red army coming, the smart thing to do is NOT FIRE, pray they dont stumble on you as they move through, and then change your drawers.

Situational Awareness is SOOO important!!

Just my two copper pieces...

[610Alpha]

I was trained to shoot center mass (had to scream 1 shot 1 kill as we left the armory, ah the good ole days) and I do remember a couple of DI's talking about how a wounded enemy takes out 3 (1 wounded, 2 to evac/care for wounded) like stated above. Don't recall hearing anything about that being the reason why we went to 5.56mm. I remember seeing a history channel episode about the 5.56 and the old brass did not like the 5.56 at all because of the lack of stopping power.

I personally don't believe in leaving a live enemy, they might come back to haunt you as a zombie. Speaking of which Walking Dead premiers this Sunday.

[Bearman202]

Protus makes an excellent point that a group of eight aren't going to stop and haul off a wounded member. I was actually thinking about a "sort-of" sniping situation. I have a .17 tack-driver that I took the range with my daughter. She was drawing designs on the target with it. In the pre-build-up, where said bad guys are getting up the cojones to actually make their attack, taking out a couple of kneecaps might dissuade them. Not anger them enough to say screw it and throw everything they have at you, just enough to make them think for a second. In a full-on attack, I doubt there would be any consideration about shooting to wound. It would be more of a "take these a-holes OUT!" situation.

I've spent a little time thinking about the body armor thing too. My MBR would probably go through most of it, but the back-ups wouldn't. I don't want the situation described above, where a baddie starts aiming from the prone position. The problem there is that head shots might be above my abilities right now, unless they were a LOT closer than I want them to get. Stuff to think about....

[Hawkeye]

5.56 M193 doesnt tumble. It yaws and then breaks apart, thus causing a lot of tissue damage.
The "Brass" have never liked change for the most part. They didnt like the .308 because it wasnt a .30-06. They didnt like 5.56 because it wasnt a .308. Seems just about every time you hear some "Brass" on a show or in an article, saying they dont like the 5.56, they arent the ones on the ground actually using it, and there is usualy behind the scenes politics at play as well.

[Hawkeye]

I've spent a little time thinking about the body armor thing too. My MBR would probably go through most of it, but the back-ups wouldn't.

Just remember, Level IV stand alone plates are rated for .30-06 AP.

[KirkMcquest]

..... Bad guys dont nurse their buddies. They run off and leave them. Dont over think this.....

Whats a "bad guy"? If we are talking about end game, SHTF scenarios, then a 'bad guy' could be your local Pastor driven to desparation from hungar and fear for his family. I think the mistake alot of you make is thinking that a group of strangers will descend upon you, men with no morals, sub-humans who can be dispatched without thought or conscience. Maybe they will have the words "thug" or "criminal" written on their shirts like in the old Batman episodes?

In desparate times the people that will most likely try to get what you have are people you know; neighbors, people from town, extended family, 90% of them descent folks under normal cir***stances. I suppose it is POSSIBLE that Mad Max style marauders will descend upon you, but even they are/were human beings driven to these measure out of desparation. If you think that there are a subspecies of 'bad-guy' out there that don't have the same thoughts/feeling/beliefs as you then you are dead wrong. And if you think that a tight band of people, driven to violence for fear of death or the death of their children, won't look after each other and nurse their wounded and seek revenge, you will be DEAD wrong.

[protus]

Whats a "bad guy"? If we are talking about end game, SHTF scenarios, then a 'bad guy' could be your local Pastor driven to desparation from hungar and fear for his family. I think the mistake alot of you make is thinking that a group of strangers will descend upon you, men with no morals, sub-humans who can be dispatched without thought or conscience. Maybe they will have the words "thug" or "criminal" written on their shirts like in the old Batman episodes?

In desparate times the people that will most likely try to get what you have are people you know; neighbors, people from town, extended family, 90% of them descent folks under normal cir***stances. I suppose it is POSSIBLE that Mad Max style marauders will descend upon you, but even they are/were human beings driven to these measure out of desparation. If you think that there are a subspecies of 'bad-guy' out there that don't have the same thoughts/feeling/beliefs as you then you are dead wrong. And if you think that a tight band of people, driven to violence for fear of death or the death of their children, won't look after each other and nurse their wounded and seek revenge, you will be DEAD wrong.

again.

Your ROE for what scenerio your planning for is what you will deem nessasry to end the threat to you and yours.



Your point about the pastor and neighbors is a good one.....if....

If you see the threat yet fail to engage because of the make up of that group you have negated your ROE and have now put yourself in a "flight" or die scenerio!

Yes no one will know "what" the bad guys are, or who they will be. But once you start "thinking" about that verse stopping the threat at hand your plan has failed.

This takes some brain training to over look "who" the threat is. Personally for me, if the event is that bad that it dictates me to put my rattle on and defend what is mine or my family, the make up of the group threatening me is the last thing on my mind! They are a threat 1st and foremost...not the local baptist preacher, johhny the plumber, carl the lawyer, or susan the teacher ........


this thread is starting to border on a "shoot/dont shoot" topic. I suggest everyone really think hard about what threats that they may come in contact with and how this effects their ROE in their preparedness plan.

[Klayton]

If they are on my side of the 8-foot fence, they are a threat!!

Check their bodies for useful equipment afterwards...