For our grapplers

[Mannlicher]

so tell me, from what you can see on the video, was Garner killed with a 'choke hold'?

[1Admin]

Fat black guy in NY?

I've only seen a short video of it.

Looks like one of the poo poo's got a rear naked choke or close variation on the guy, then "rode" him with it while the guy tossed the other cop's around.

A decently applied RNC should bring about nappey time in 5-10 seconds. Variables include size of dude's neck- He seemed to be a BIG boy-, hold well the RNC is applied, etc.

Could be like the Rodney King video- all we saw was the last part of the beatdown, no one videoed nice ole' Rodney on dope beating the hell out of the cops FIRST... So since we did not see the entire thing, it's kinda speculation.

Some notes-

*Yes you continue to hold a choke like that a good while after "dude" goes limp, he can die. It's a choke after all...

*A rear naked choke is a BLOOD choke, it works by compressing the carotid arteries, essentially blocking blood from blood. You first feel slight pressure in your head, eyes tend to narrow (depending on subject), then blackness comes. If the choke is good it can come on relatively quickly. I would guess from just the quick clip I saw, that the choke was not locked up well.

That sort of BLOOD choke can give you the sensation of "I can't breathe" but technically it isn't attacking your airway, but the blood to your brain.

I was just thinking "Ironic that we just did a class on this sort of thing at the GA campout" :)

Anywhoo, yet another variable is that with a big ole' head, or a fat guy without much of a neck, or if you are losing the first hold (choking arm), you can often simply transition slightly to an air choke, via using the blade of the forearm to pull into the front of the neck/trachea area.

Like any AIR choke, this causes IMMEDIATE pain and immediate reaction. Like I said at the campout when we taught and demonstrated this- people tend to "fight" more with an air choke. If you want to put them down easy, the blood choke is better IMO.

So...... further complicating things is the fact that "dude" seemed to be about four fifty. Big guys you can't restrain well, arm locks, shoulder locks are usually a waste of time, taking him to ground MAY have been a good choice provided one or more of the officers were truly used to ground work, in other words NOT just the short bit they get in police training. Guys that big usually DON'T move well on the ground unless they train ground fighting- at first glance I'd say very very small chance "dude" was a ground fighter. "The ground is an ocean, We are sharks and most people can't swim" doesn't apply to "dude" I'm afraid.

I have fought with guys damn near that size, at 180'ish. Hell the BOY has fought with guys pushing 300. I ALWAYS hunt chokes first on anyone that size and while I'll "play" a little bit with most people I try not to with super huge people. I've had huge guys that could bench press cars with an arm outstretched having them dead to rights with a tight arm bar, or caught in a technically perfect kimura (shoulder lock) that have literally shook me off like a rag doll due to their size/strength. You choke people like that. Why? CAUSE EVERYONE HAS TO BREATHE AND EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE BLOOD TO THEIR BRAIN. Size matters not where oxygen and blood is concerned....

So the cops probably did correct.

If I had to guess, other than seeing another 30 seconds or minute of video where the po po's were maybe holding the RNC AFTER "dude" went out- I would have to guess that due to his gross obesity, dude probably had a heart attack.

There was a story going around at a seminar one time about how "back in the day" some grappler that was 70'ish was practicing blood chokes with another guy. Older guy evidently doesn't tap and takes a quick nap. Partner wakes him up, he's fine. Later that day or next, he dies. Evidently some "plague" in the blood is broken loose during the choke out and supposedly made it to his heart and caused a heart attack. 2nd hand info, take it for what it's worth, seems possible though.

[Mannlicher]

Thanks for the information, and the reasoned response. It helps me a lot when thinking about the situation in NYC. I well remember the class in GA, and your statements back up what I took away from that training.

[flatlander]

From the part of the video I saw, it APPEARS that he did not apply a choke. It looks as though he may have started to but as they were turning around, his forearm slid visibly away from the neck. While the OBESE man was proned out he started complaining about not breathing. It has been proven that men such as this guy, with ALL his health issues, have a higher chance of breathing problems when placed in any prone position,
Bottom line? I don't think he was choked out.

Bob

[Lowdown3]

Only part I saw was the one cop climbing his back, from the angle it looked like he had a choke briefly. Don't have regular TV so I've only seen a short clip once.

[Rmplstlskn]

I have seen many comments all over the internet about how the guy died because he was so overweight and unhealthy, and if he wasn't so, he would not be dead, essentially blaming the guy for his own death. I do see that he resisted arrest, which is bad choice if one knows they are in bad health, but I also saw a neck hold that to my untrained eye did more to stopping blood flow to the brain than stopping air, although a man with a fat neck will have his air pipe closed easily. I also saw the same aggressive cop who did the choke hold also put his full weight on the face and head of this man, crushing it into the concrete sidewalk. Then there was the weight of other cops on his chest area trying to restrain him. Sadly, he probably began to fight more because he couldn't breath and was choking than he was resisting arrest, which only led to more force applied to him by the cops to restrain. He then died there on the sidewalk...

So I see bad choices on both sides; the man for resisting the initial arrest attempts and the cops for not knowing that this man was BIG but also prone to serious death risk if brought down to the ground and then piled on top of. They should have tazer'ed him or told him clearly, "You are under arrest. Please allow us to arrest you. If you do not, we will have to use physical force."

Even sadder, all about a few cigarettes...

Rmpl