Logistics/ethics questions....ammo storage

[jimmycthemd]

There is this guy who stores a good quantity of ammunition at his home in green ammo cans. His neighbor (across the street) has a minor house fire and it gets him thinking. What if my house caught on fire? A logistical question and an ethics/moral question.

1) Is there a relatively inexpensive way to either protect the ammunition from the fire and keep it from cooking off and causing serious injury or death in the case of a fire? A safe is not in the budget. The alternative is to figure out a way to store it so that, when the ammo cooks off, the rounds do not escape the storage area. Any ideas?

2) The ethics/moral question. Either way, do you notify the fire department/police when they arrive that there is a significant amount of amunition in the house? If the firemen are going to enter the house while fighting the fire, he thinks that this would be the right thing to do. What are your thoughts about if/when/how you would notify the firemen about the amunition.

There are two reasons I bring up these questions. First, I think it's my Christian duty to store my amunition properly and safely to protect both my loved ones and anyone in the community that might be effected. The second, I want to make sure that the liberals do NOT use my situation as an excuse to pass legislation to further restrict the manner or amount of ammution that a person can posess and store in their home. An ounce of prevention type of thing in both cases. Let's keep this discussion positive...solutions, not railing against the left....there are enough threads on those subjects.

[Rmplstlskn]

First, without a tight chamber to wrap around the brass of the cartridge, forcing the expanding energy of burning propellant to push a bullet out, like a barrel chamber of a firearm, the cartridge will just explode in random directions. There may be shards in close proximity, but bullets will not just start shooting everywhere, like in Hollywood movies...

Now with ammo cans, I would hope that the designers of the cans assumed that at some time these ammo cans with ammo in them might be in a fire, so they engineered FAILURE POINTS into the ammo cans to release pressure BEFORE it turned into a IED... I suspect the lid buckles and the hinge fails...

YES, I would tell any Fire crew arriving to MY FIRE that you have ## of ammo cans with loaded ammunition. It is for their safety and then they can adjust the fire battle plan accordingly... Chances are, they will fight the fire from outside and not step foot in the house until the fire is extinguished... This means more damage and loss, but that is the price we pay as firearm owners. I could not imagine the guilt I would have if a firefighter was hurt or killed because I remained silent about potential dangers in my home.

Ammo in a SAFE is a BAD IDEA!!! If the fire seals the safe gaskets tight and then the ammo begins to cook off, that most assuredly will EXPLODE at some time if enough ammo is in there... That would be major bad news and could kill easily those around it...

This is why I have a solid concrete block shop that is very secure where all my ammo is stored. I only keep less than a dozen loaded mags in the home... Some in weapons, some in web gear. This is no big deal in a fire. So if my shop went up in ammo flames, it is better than my home, and I will be happy that firefighters can save my home yet let my shop burn...

Rmpl

[hidden_waldo]

Just some random thoughts about this:

As Rmplslskn commented, loose ammo on it own won't cause much damage. I view an individual piece of ammo is about like a brass cased firecracker. Possible for someone to get hurt, yes. Also think about all the spray paint cans, cooking oil, 20 lb LP grill bottles, etc...etc...etc... that can cause just as much or more damage that ammo.

I'm no expert, but in terms of quantity allowed in a "home", the only "rules" I have seen on that is for reloading components. Basically, keep them in their original shipping containers and don't seal them in a structure.

Below is what the safety community thinks about some of this:

2006 International Fire Code (IFC) says the following:

Ammunition and primers should be stored separately from other explosives.
Powder should be stored in its original DOT-approved container.
Quantities of powder between 20lbs and 50lbs should be stored in a wooden box or cabinet with walls at least 1" thick.
Quantities in excess of 50lbs of powder and 10,000 small arms primers should not be stored in a this type of building.

You could try to find this manual to see what it has to say about ammo storage and liabilities in chapter 14:
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product....&cookie_test=1

At one level, the firefighters know homes are not only filled with wood, carpet and furniture. I would hope the would approach the fire with some caution there could be secondary explosions.

The helpful thing to do is, tell the on-sight fire Commander, some of the stuff they will have to deal with in the general location.

From a Legal and financial standpoint, I would talk to a lawyer before hand to know what to communicate during an event like this. If you start volunteering that you have XXX gallons of gas, YYY rounds of ammo and ZZZ pounds of powder regardless of the situation; it wouldn't take much for your home owners insurance to get cancelled, your claim denied and/ or arrested due to you admitting you accidentally broke a local law / broke the terms of your insurance contract.

There is no straight forward answer to your question.

[bountyhunter69]

i got lucky with answer to the problem of stored ammo. After we moved here 1.5 yrs ago,i got aquainted with local garage by having work done on my vehicles. As luck has it,the owner and i became friends and one day while i was there shooting bull fire call came in..after he went out on call and returned few min later,the alarm was small fire that got contained by home owner before fire dept arrived. I found out he was chief of our local volunteer rural fire dept so i told him where i had my ammo stored..exactly which room in house..now i feel better that they know it lessens the fear of someone getting injured or worse

[Benn Gleck]

About 4 years ago in my home town there was a large house fire and later it was reported by the lamestream media that the owner had an "arsenal".

Turns out he had over 700,000 rounds burn up but to the dismay of the reporters no explosions or bullets flying. :(

[Gonzo]

Some months ago I happened upon a video that explores this very subject...

Oh yeah, here it is...

WARNING: GRAPHIC!!
Depicts the destruction of high quantities of sad, innocent ammunition. It can be very difficult for some to watch. :(

SAAMI - Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c

G

[Rmplstlskn]

Too bad they didn't show ammo in military steel ammo cans, as that is a very common storage method.

Lots of ammo burned up! Must have been ammo past its EXPIRATION DATE... :-)

Rmpl

[jimmycthemd]

The video was exactly what I was looking for, thanks!! The area where my ammo is stored has either poured cement walls (basement) or 3/4 inch plywood with flooring above it. Either/both will stop the projectiles the way I have them stored so, problem solved. Even if the firefighters need to enter the room, the projectiles will be low enough velocity that their turnout gear will stop them. That's the main thing I was concerned about.

[Gonzo]

Cool! I'm glad that helped!


G

[rice paddy daddy]

Since I have "a few" rounds, several years ago at a community festival I asked (separately) members of both the Volunteer Dept and the County FD what they do in the case of a structure fire with ammo inside. Everyone around this neck of the woods has some ammo on hand, for their deer rifle at least.
The response I got from both was the same. If any amount beyond a couple boxes starts cooking off they back away and let it burn.
Right or wrong, argue all you want, I'm just telling y'all the local SOP.
And since my homeowners insurance probably wouldn't pay off in that circumstance (and I did not ask the agent, nor would I) I moved mine out to my barn.
I just keep some "ready ammo" in the bedroom.

This is just what I do, y'all can do as you wish.

[jimmycthemd]

I don't have the option of another building on my property. I may have to 'cache' the additional rounds somewhere but I'm not sure yet. My main concern is the safety of the first responders. The house is secondary to any human life.

I'd probably look at this like stored gasoline/oil in the garage. I'm still researching posibilities at this point but, as stated, wanted to insure that the first responders were not going to be seriously harmed.

[Lowdown3]

Great thread five stars!

Something overlooked by most of us.

In the long long ago a "friend" had an older wooden structure on his property that he fixed up for "friends" to stay at when they came up. Through an act of carelessness by one of these "friends" that the house was opened up to, a fire happened there at the house. As it started to spread throughout the ceiling area, an LEO friend that was there reminded everyone of the ammo inside and basically said "if it's popping off, fire guys will NOT help." So multiple trips were made inside the burning house to remove cases of ammunition. Thankfully the fire was put out before it spread too too much.

Hearing that stories from other friends, always made me think about that. At least in my case all of our outside walls are poured solid and WILL withstand any round I keep in the house. So to an extent it may contain any rounds that are flying.

As part of our revamping of our water system this year, one of the things is both a passive and an active firefighting plan. It sounds silly, but I think a set of Level III plates and a carrier stored somewhere outside the house. If I have to fight the fire myself better to be protected if things go south with ammo.