Grid down test

[WiseOwl]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=3&

will be an interesting test

[qrprat77]

Most interesting thing about this to me is that they aren't just talking about the theorical "Solar/nuclear EMP" stuff, but are talking about the more realistic prospect of man made grid troubles. I think we have seen an attack like this already in this country (reference: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_230365...silicon-valley ), and this is a reaction to that.

[Grand58742]

I think there is also the fact we have overextended ourselves in the electrical arena and with the closures of the coal plants (as planned) there is going to be even more of a shortfall and in turn, the grid is going to be that much more stretched. New energy sources are slowly coming online, but it's going to be hard pressed to do more than just equal what it's replacing.

So hence, you lose one plant right now and you are in trouble. Lose a couple of plants plus some of the main lines of the transmission grid and it's a catastrophe since it won't be easy to shunt power where there is none to be had. Cascading failure is a real and huge possibility even with the safeguards put into place after the Northeast blackout in 2003.

But one thing I can guarantee you they will not put in the official report, but probably will be discussing. The loss of control by police and emergency services in major urban areas. It's one of those things that can and most likely will happen in the aftermath of a blackout if it goes on for any length of time. Whether it's man-made (terrorist attack) or system failure (like 2003) won't matter. Within the first 24 hours, looting should be expected. So I'm wondering how much this will account into the planning cell for the exercise.

[qrprat77]

I think there is also the fact we have overextended ourselves in the electrical arena and with the closures of the coal plants (as planned) there is going to be even more of a shortfall and in turn, the grid is going to be that much more stretched. New energy sources are slowly coming online, but it's going to be hard pressed to do more than just equal what it's replacing. Definitely playing a role! Spot on analysis.

So hence, you lose one plant right now and you are in trouble. Lose a couple of plants plus some of the main lines of the transmission grid and it's a catastrophe since it won't be easy to shunt power where there is none to be had. Cascading failure is a real and huge possibility even with the safeguards put into place after the Northeast blackout in 2003. Yes, policy is definitely making the grid vulnerable. Had an interesting WX event yesterday in Lakeland. got some straight-line winds that knocked down several trees onto powerlines with subsequent traffic light outages. Happened about 40min before I left for work, which is right around the time when everyone else is getting off. It was "interesting" commuting with spotty traffic outages...

But one thing I can guarantee you they will not put in the official report, but probably will be discussing. The loss of control by police and emergency services in major urban areas. It's one of those things that can and most likely will happen in the aftermath of a blackout if it goes on for any length of time. Whether it's man-made (terrorist attack) or system failure (like 2003) won't matter. Within the first 24 hours, looting should be expected. So I'm wondering how much this will account into the planning cell for the exercise.

I honestly think that most 'riot planning' in this country revolves around 'contain and starve' They will seek to contain the rioting elements to wherever they are and just wait for them to get hungry. Hunger is the number one pacifier throughout history.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I honestly think that most 'riot planning' in this country revolves around 'contain and starve' They will seek to contain the rioting elements to wherever they are and just wait for them to get hungry. Hunger is the number one pacifier throughout history.

"THEY" I guess i'm they brother
I've served on 2 tac teams and the National Guard as well as the Army and have even done a short stint in the CC, as a leader and a worker bee, and no primary riot planning is based on this. In fact there is no primary riot planning that is put into place that doesn't allow escape routes for the masses to funnel thru because you will always be vastly outnumbered and in public America outgunned in many cases and the outcome goal is always for dispersement with only the active attackers being taken into custody.
Now if needed to end a situation thirst within non danger limits, climate control, hunger within non starvation limits, light control and sleep derivation, noise pollution are tools that can be used as bargaining chips or as an end tool.
They don't even starve prisoners in prison riots much less American kids. We (ME) are not mindless heartless robots.

[Grand58742]

"THEY" I guess i'm they brother
I've served on 2 tac teams and the National Guard as well as the Army and have even done a short stint in the CC, as a leader and a worker bee, and no primary riot planning is based on this. In fact there is no primary riot planning that is put into place that doesn't allow escape routes for the masses to funnel thru because you will always be vastly outnumbered and in public America outgunned in many cases and the outcome goal is always for dispersement with only the active attackers being taken into custody.
Now if needed to end a situation thirst within non danger limits, climate control, hunger within non starvation limits, light control and sleep derivation, noise pollution are tools that can be used as bargaining chips or as an end tool.
They don't even starve prisoners in prison riots much less American kids. We (ME) are not mindless heartless robots.

I'm reasonable certain that wasn't directed at you in particular or your brethren (which I'm one of too for the moment) but as guesswork. No local LEO, federal agency, National Guard or military force has had to plan on rioting and looting on a regional scale that might ensue after a grid down situation. Oh, I'm sure there are plans somewhere locked up in a safe, but nothing out in the public. And by containment, yes, he is correct in saying LEO/NG/AD forces will try to contain the disturbance from spreading further. That's SOP and has been practiced before (NOLA, LA) and those that try to get out are typically let out. And while I can't speak for QRP, starvation is a very real tool. Not food starvation, but starving the looters and rioters of the fuel of their unrest. Why do the locusts die off? Because there is nothing left to eat. Why does looting stop? Because the looters get hungry, tired or there is nothing left to take.

You and I have both studied MOUT and know nobody goes into a urban area, especially today's urban areas, without overwhelming force. And even then, casualties will be high from dug in defenders. Protect and Serve only goes so far in a full blown riot/looting situation and containment is the obvious choice until you get superior numbers. And you and I both know most police forces in the large cities (NYC, LA, Chicago, Atlanta) do not have overwhelming numbers to begin with, much less trying to stop thousands of rioters, anarchists and looters. They can only set up containment, hoping to won't spread further and stretch them even thinner and wait for back up and/or for the looters to "starve" and go home.

His response wasn't a slam against LEO, but once you think of it in other terms, he is correct. Think of a barricaded suspect situation. Suspect runs into a mall. First steps? Containment, get innocents out, shut off power, water and supplies, call in negotiator, wait for suspect to get hungry or get negotiated out.

Now apply to a large scale city.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

I'm reasonable certain that wasn't directed at you in particular or your brethren (which I'm one of too for the moment) but as guesswork. No local LEO, federal agency, National Guard or military force has had to plan on rioting and looting on a regional scale that might ensue after a grid down situation. Oh, I'm sure there are plans somewhere locked up in a safe, but nothing out in the public. And by containment, yes, he is correct in saying LEO/NG/AD forces will try to contain the disturbance from spreading further. That's SOP and has been practiced before (NOLA, LA) and those that try to get out are typically let out. And while I can't speak for QRP, starvation is a very real tool. Not food starvation, but starving the looters and rioters of the fuel of their unrest. Why do the locusts die off? Because there is nothing left to eat. Why does looting stop? Because the looters get hungry, tired or there is nothing left to take.

You and I have both studied MOUT and know nobody goes into a urban area, especially today's urban areas, without overwhelming force. And even then, casualties will be high from dug in defenders. Protect and Serve only goes so far in a full blown riot/looting situation and containment is the obvious choice until you get superior numbers. And you and I both know most police forces in the large cities (NYC, LA, Chicago, Atlanta) do not have overwhelming numbers to begin with, much less trying to stop thousands of rioters, anarchists and looters. They can only set up containment, hoping to won't spread further and stretch them even thinner and wait for back up and/or for the looters to "starve" and go home.

His response wasn't a slam against LEO, but once you think of it in other terms, he is correct. Think of a barricaded suspect situation. Suspect runs into a mall. First steps? Containment, get innocents out, shut off power, water and supplies, call in negotiator, wait for suspect to get hungry or get negotiated out.

Now apply to a large scale city.

No no wasnt meant to be a "mad" comment and I know it wasn't a slam on me and my answer was just a fact deal.I've trained extensively in riots and have been called out to them. Eygpt is a good recent example. No one tried to starve them and when they did go in even with the killing the plan was dispersement. Containment yes with exit routes always

As far as no one planning for a regional/state level riot after grid down, well, yes we have and in fact went as far as to execute portions in Y2K even using some outside the box stuff. I was there and Thank God (I mean this) nothing happen and everyone just blinked and we all went home. There were alot of happy officers, alot of disappointed criminals and many drunks and I got to take a deep breath for the first time in weeks, scary stuff

[Grand58742]

No no wasnt meant to be a "mad" comment and I know it wasn't a slam on me and my answer was just a fact deal.I've trained extensively in riots and have been called out to them. Eygpt is a good recent example. No one tried to starve them and when they did go in even with the killing the plan was dispersement. Containment yes with exit routes always

As far as no one planning for a regional/state level riot after grid down, well, yes we have and in fact went as far as to execute portions in Y2K even using some outside the box stuff. I was there and Thank God (I mean this) nothing happen and everyone just blinked and we all went home. There were alot of happy officers, alot of disappointed criminals and many drunks and I got to take a deep breath for the first time in weeks, scary stuff

Hey, I've been there got the t-shirt in riots as well. Outnumbered 30 to 1 with no lethal weapons is not a fun situation to be in and we could do little more than containment and channel the hordes into the areas we wanted them in. You find out pretty quick that stomp and drag down Main Street is out the window.

I was pretty certain there were plans prior to Y2K, but a lot has changed since then. So I am glad they are at least looking at "what if" today.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

The other side of that coin is the "rioters". There is and has never been a need for too harsh a tactics around here of late.
The chinese that don't even have 2 yen to rub together can make a tank vs human event and win, the egyptians can mass in numbers with no water, food or housing for a month and be such a pain in the behind with a teachers laser pointer that they bring in the army.
We can't even get a "million man march" in an area of multimillions cause of excuse after excuse. We can't even get a dozen believers on here to walk 2 miles in a safe zone protected area and test their gear in good weather for one single night because it's an inconvenience or could be. People here don't even hardly break out of prison anymore, especially in mass, instead give they notes to tellers and wait on the cops for the "frees" and will show up without escort to the prison to be fed, medically cared for, clothed, educated and bedded.

If by hunger we mean don't get them pizza delivery and MREs and they will go home, ok.

Good control is but an illusion anyway and most is mental and little physical.

If I play chess with you or paintball with Wiseowl or have a spelling contest with LD3 I'm not going to feed anyone because I want them to be thinking about going somewhere/anywhere and getting something to eat and not be thinking about the task at hand so I can win. I'm also going to drink a frosty one while not offering you any and talk about home, kids, loving women and paint a picture in your head of that wonderus disney like place you want to get back to. I will say off color things and stuff that doesn't make sense to make you ponder. I will wear the ugly christmas sweater to draw the eye and make you question my sense of dignity. I will hum a tune that can cause you to sing along and stick in your head with either happy feelings, sad feelings or memories of old so as to suck the mind in. I can do things with my body that will make you squeamish and uncomfortable to make you not want to be near me like an over obsessive scratching down there while licking my lips. All of these add up to you not paying attention to the real and losing or not doing as well as you could.

When I hunt I place myself between the target and the food for the kill but when I drive cattle I use the food, words(sound) and non contact motions to move them into new pasture (with an OPEN GATE) so as not to harm them when doing so and i will lose some in a different direction but they will eventually join the rest to get away from the chaos with join with lustful greed and company in time. The same is with riot control.
That isn't mean ole beat'em till they die in an ever tightening circle Ghengas Khan stuff, it's tactics 101 I learned as a child on a farm.

The practice is good because it can fix issues you might not see like trying to channel too many people into too small an area or down to small a street where folks get hurt. It allows you to know the amounts of chemical to be used so they don't become deadly with PPMs in Sq ft. It gives you the chance to look at how to contain trouble without overly controlling those within their rights. etc etc
The practice drill, well, it also shows a level of preparedness most places and .govs publicly deny so as not to scare the bleating sheeples but should be done to pacify the camoed ones who wish only for normalcy thru preparations

[qrprat77]

No no wasnt meant to be a "mad" comment and I know it wasn't a slam on me and my answer was just a fact deal.I've trained extensively in riots and have been called out to them. Eygpt is a good recent example. No one tried to starve them and when they did go in even with the killing the plan was dispersement. Containment yes with exit routes alwaysAs far as no one planning for a regional/state level riot after grid down, well, yes we have and in fact went as far as to execute portions in Y2K even using some outside the box stuff. I was there and Thank God (I mean this) nothing happen and everyone just blinked and we all went home. There were alot of happy officers, alot of disappointed criminals and many drunks and I got to take a deep breath for the first time in weeks, scary stuff

Your experiences in handling Y2K may be the closest thing we have to understanding how a regional riot situation would be handled using US doctrine. I'm especially interested in hearing about the "outside the box" stuff. how was preparing for the Y2K stuff different than your standard "Hippies gotta riot" situation? Egypt is interesting as well. I'm gathering some thoughts about that situation, coupled with Syria, and some of the other "Muslim Brotherhood" related situations in the Muslim world. Social media is very important to the modern "Joe Everyguy" and "Joe Badguy", and seems to be driving how things are perceived in these situations.

[qrprat77]

Let me for the record state that Okie is definately saying with more eloquence and (most importantly) experience what I'm thinking. No disagreement between us! Stuff is also getting real out in San Francisco today: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/08...-San-Francisco [quote]That

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Let me for the record state that Okie is definately saying with more eloquence and (most importantly) experience what I'm thinking. No disagreement between us! Stuff is also getting real out in San Francisco today: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/08...-San-Francisco so the big ol' forest fire out there is starting to stress their infrastructure. Little things happening like a forest fire (something like 90% of which are started by idiots playing with fire in the woods) will lead to bigger things. That's what we prepare for.

Having to shut down 2 of the 3 power generators in the summer months is huge as well! Water and power down in good times, imagine how quickly that will go post SHTF. This should make believers out of more hopefully

[protus]

Having to shut down 2 of the 3 power generators in the summer months is huge as well! Water and power down in good times, imagine how quickly that will go post SHTF. This should make believers out of more hopefully

sorry but this is how that works mio-

no power/water- masses go native
power /water restored- natives turn civil
2 weeks later- masses sipping on their starbucks are crying about who the bachelorette chose......
2 months later no one remembers .


why do you think we have the issue on cane prep down here. will some wake up..but sure...but not a majority.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

sorry but this is how that works mio-

no power/water- masses go native
power /water restored- natives turn civil
2 weeks later- masses sipping on their starbucks are crying about who the bachelorette chose......
2 months later no one remembers .


why do you think we have the issue on cane prep down here. will some wake up..but sure...but not a majority.

I know it was a momentary slip where I tried to be positive for humanity

[protus]

I know it was a momentary slip where I tried to be positive for humanity

lol i know man...im the guy who seemed to drink 5 big gulps and is on the over pass as the parade goes by underneath today for some reason lmao.