Why should I keep you alive?

[Lowdown3]

Figured it was time for a controversial one :) Now this is important- when reading this, understand that the word "I" is used to hold place, it does NOT refer directly to me, i.e, the person writing this. Keep the emotions out of this and you should be able to get a lot out of the concept here...

Sooooo, your in a group setting, the stuff has hit the fan. You know these folks, but they aren't blood. Blood meaning relatives. Yes some relatives are a major PITA but in general, most of us would risk our lives, etc. for family first and foremost.

So this isn't a "who gets the last twinkie?" type of non sense, but a real question you should ponder.

I've often said things like this boil down to relationship. And they do. I have to know you, I have to trust you and I have to be willing to DEPEND on you in order to get in this position with you in the first place. Let's break those three down a little more-

I have to KNOW you- You know have a connection in REAL LIFE! Crazy concept I know, but in the last few years a lot of new "preppers" seem to have gotten the wrong idea on this. You can't have met the person a time or two and have this connection. You can't just talk to the person on line and have this connection. You have to really know them. And not to get all sappy sounding here, but you gotta kinda CARE for the person.

I have to TRUST you- This only developed over time. This is usually the result of completed committments. Say your going to finish a project for the group but never did it? Yes that affects people's trust of you. We tend to think of "trust" simply as "would the guy sell me out?" But really it's much more than that. It's reliability, it's knowing that person will be there. Too often this concept involves a lot of BRAVADO- "oh man, you know I'd be there for ya if the time came." Really? You are going to move mountains when things are falling apart but can't make it now when all that stands in your way is yardwork, a little expense in gas, your wife, etc? I'm supposed to believe that "you'll be there" THEN when you aren't there NOW?

I have to be willing to DEPEND on you- this links in with the last one a lot. If the trust is never developed- note the key word DEVELOPED- then their is no way I will depend on you. Now we are getting more into the heart of things.

After listening to some of my podcasts on Survival Groups, QRPRat made a great comment based on an old Cheap Trick song- "I want you to want me." And that one phrase summed up a lot of the concept.

You have to be needed within a group. More so than that, people have to understand WHY you need to be kept alive.

More so than simply "well I'm a Doc, Glock Armorer, ex-SF, farmed my whole life, blacksmith, Expert class HAM, electrical engineer, construction contractor, Veterinarian and sniper... this also involves the above criteria- trust, dependability, knowing and caring for you.

The greatest member in the world might be the one that never shows to anything, can't be bothered with training and won't lift a shovel to work with the group. He lacks the dependability aspect.

Like QRPrat stated from the old Cheap Trick song- "I want you to want me." This really kinda sums it up. What do you bring to the table? Why should I risk my life for you? Because you are a nice guy I met one time? That will only go so far. Because you are a real buddy of mine who has proven themselves invaluble to the group? That will go MUCH further.

Ponder these things in your heart.

[610Alpha]

Some pretty deep stuff to be thinking about on this rainy (finally) sunday morning. You are absolutely correct about the connection...there are some family members that I don't have a connection with other than we share some genes yet there are some step-family members that I would move heaven and earth for because of the connection that I have with them.

Great post

[Matt In Oklahoma]

This is the reason it is important to train and/or work together on a REGULAR basis. Otherwise that relationship won't be established. As with all relationships there are people who won't like others and now is the time to figure out how to get thru that obstacle and continue towards the common goal. I am a good example of this as I know I can be harsh and an a.. at times and those around me must learn to accept that IF they believe I offer enough to the group to maintain that relationship.
"Getting Together" is good and ok but coffee shop chat doesn't show strengths and weakness or true personality in adversity when conditions become stressful or tough. When you work and/or train together and things go wrong you see how people react, adapt and mesh.
Several folks have ducked the training meets altogether, have discontinued contact and made excuses. We do things in a manner to keep locations and plans unknown to them but if they were able to figure out out they would NOT be welcomed in during a crisis with open arms I can assure you. In fact I will go ahead and tell you I will be the one to meet you at the gate and your time to go will be short.
It would quite a stretch for you to take in say MIO from S&P who made it all the way to southern idaho because well he's a good ole boy on the net and he posted some cool pics that time and said he had an X600 whooptywhoop in his bag that maybe we could use it - only to find out the reason MIO made it was because he ate his group after killing them on the trek across the country and really has no plans on staying once he has used up your resources and fulfilled his needs including sexual with the resources at your camp.
But it's ok you say because you are a DR or whatever is of value. I'll just show up and they will take me in because I'll be needed. You are correct if one of mine is shot and you show at the gate announcing your DRism you will be TAKEN in not welcomed but TAKEN in and you will use your skills and if they don't make it you might not either. Bet ya didn't think bout that did ya!?! Harsh world out there folks but this is the real deal I typing here. And before you all go and jump on me maybe this is me and maybe this aint, maybe I'm just sayin and maybe I'm not.
Yes relationships, true ones are very important.

[Rmplstlskn]

I am a good example of this as I know I can be harsh and an a$$ at times and those around me must learn to accept that

Much of this topic has to do with INTROSPECTION... I use your comment above to explain how I always try to examine myself, my emotions, my personality, and how I interact with people I am CLOSE with... There is much I still need to correct IN ME but I also see how far I have come over the decades from what I USED TO be like as a person.

I have seen how strong personalities that do not understand HUMILITY do not often mesh well with anyone besides submissive followers... Only the MILITARY model has worked somewhat successfully when multiple strong, independent personalities are forced together but in a PAW scenario, this also has the potential to raise up tyrants...

Honestly, I have become less and less a believer in the success rate of any group that does not have a mutual higher power that guides and governs all things....

But in the physical sense, the CARE, TRUST, and DEPENDABILITY does indeed only come with LIVING IT in close proximity. And I can say with me, I have zero local family and none of my neighbors are people I would want to ride out PAW or Tribulation with... And no one of my BLOOD family has anything going on that would motivate me to go to THEM... They would have to come to ME if that event hit... And even then, they differ much phsycologically and spiritually from me, so it would not be a pretty picture, but I would not reject blood relatives if they showed up at my door.

Then that leaves the other "blood" brothers and sisters I have spread all over the country, even the world. The SPIRITUAL blood family... But even that family has a tough time getting along as doctrines and different understandings of Scripture bring conflict and seperation, weaking the groups. I have so much respect and understanding of Moses now days... What an IMPOSSIBLE job he had. If it weren't YHWH slapping them with curses and plagues within the camp, PURGING the evil, vile ones DIVINELY, I do not think they would have made it... So it is a BLEAK picture for us to do anything similiar, on a smaller scale, now days...

I honestly don't have a clue how the future pain and judgement coming our way will be survived by anyone... My mind cannot grasp it... I just keep working towards my goal the best I know how, CHANGE MYSELF so that I am not the problem in the group, rather a solution, and keep trusting YHWH that I will be where I need to be when I need to be there...

Rmpl

[rockriver]

i think asked the "greek question" before.

asking men this question taught me a lot.
here's the situation.
the greeks were marching and protesting in athens a couple of years ago.
they were mad. they came to a bank and set it on fire. the fire dept came and the greeks were so mad they held the fire dept back. 1 man and 2 women died in the bank.
so here's the question i asked men. i would name the nearby big city. and say you are watching tv and your wife is running errands in town. you are watching the protesters in big city, mad that the financial situation is deteriorating (as it is in the usa)
you see your bank that has been set on fire, but the fire is just at the base of the building. you think, "this is a shame." then as the tv camera zooms in you see a lady with a red dress inside at the window, pounding on the window. you realize that is your wife. you live about 2 miles from the bank. you have loaded guns near the front door. the crowd is huge. 15 people thick all the way down the road in front of the bank. you have pickup truck. would you take your guns and truck and do all that is possible to rescue your wife. you must leave now. would you leave. if i get a yes, then ask, would you drive your truck into the crowd? then, if you can't get to the crowd and running you holler, "get out of the way, and help me save those women."
when they don't help save and in fact don't move but block you, would you shoot to make a path?

guys, i quit asking the greek question. most men would say no. the older the man was, the more likely i would get an affirmative answer. the no's always went something like this.
"this would be a time to bow before God and pray that he will rescue her."
" i am very important to our retreat group. if i got hurt or killed it would be a great loss to the group."
"we have 2 children. you are talking about a suicide mission. the crowd would kill you. i would need to stay home to provide for our children as they grow up."

here's what dawned on me. if these males would not go attempt to rescue their wives from fire, there is no way they would come to my rescue.

but i found out a lot about a lot of people during that time.
that is such a good thing.

[WiseOwl]

I would fight tooth and nail to get to my wife and/or kids in that situation RR.
I could be a pile of blood and guts and would still try to slither towards them.
But thats me, that my DNA.

After reading this thread today I really tried to rack my brain about this.

I have less than 10 people (blood and non) that I could trust like this.

I am a very loyal person to those 10 folks. I am loyal friend as it is to a lot of people, but that 110% is for those 10, maybe 12.


Good thread guys. Got me thinking today.

[1Admin]

Honestly, I have become less and less a believer in the success rate of any group that does not have a mutual higher power that guides and governs all things....

I agree. However keep in mind people often differ greatly in interpretations, doctrine and misc. What's important to one party that they were inDOCTRINEated with might be of lesser value to another party.

Here's a real life example I heard of-

So this pretty prideful guy brought a "friend" around. Prideful guy pronounced how the friend would fight through the gates of hell for him, believed every word he said, etc. etc. Prideful guy also brought friend into Christianity, so further pride in being a "mentor" to him, etc. We'll call the friend "Joe"

Prideful guy knew the others well enough to know that at the end of a hard day's work, one or two of the adults might have a beer, not get drunk, not act like a dunskie, just have a cold beer after working hard. It had previously never caused a single issue. Prideful guy could have easily said upfront to the others "hey man, could you two skip having a beer tonight, Joe is a recovering alcoholic." And you know what, the others would not have had a beer, I KNOW that would have been seen to without a problem. Instead prideful guy said nothing about it. "Joe" came around with a family that was a freaking WRECK- kids unwatched and out of control, young ones almost burning themselves in campfire while Joe tells stories about how they poke at rattlesnakes with sticks after being told not to. Joe's wife is a major jezebel, has a month old baby that she repeatedly and for lengthy periods of time leaves UNATTENDED in a stroller near the fire! Older child is tearing up things, throwing trash everywhere, Jezebel Mom ignores when she is there or screams at the 5 year old and beats in front of everyone, but mostly leaves the teenage daughter who's dressed and acts very inappropriately to watch the 5 year old.

None of the persons there say ANYTHING about the lack of parenting, the multiple danger issues, the jezebel issues, the newborn being left unattended (cold weather also), the jezebel absolutely refusing to help the other women, etc.

However Joe's jezebel wife who really doesn't want to be there, pins Prideful guy down on the fact that two of the other guys had a beer at dinner and that one of the guys says "condom" in reference to a discussion about gathering water. A BIG DEAL is made about it and jezebel plays Prideful guy like a violin and makes him bring the subject up to everyone. A couple people ask "Joe" about this privately, why didn't you say something, those two wouldn't have had a beer, etc. "Joe" goes on to say that he allows people AT HIS HOUSE to drink, drinks a good bit himself, etc!!! Wait a tick! Your causing a huge ruckus at someone else's place about something you allow at your home???? Further, "Joe" who supposedly would "fight through the gates of hell" for Prideful guy, is laying him down (backstabing him) left and right during the conversation.

Prideful guy later talks privately to one of the key members about the deal a few days later. He is TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to how jezebel played him or to how all the others view "Joe" and his train wreck of a family or understand how Prideful guy was played like a violin. Acts surprised that the others have a problem with "Joe" and family. Why the hell wouldn't they? They are a DANGER and risk to everyone, a helluva lot bigger danger than two guys cracking one beer after a hard days work! To "Joe" the "speck" in the other's eyes was much bigger than the lumberyard in his eyes...

Prideful guy, being a prideful guy who liked to think everyone thought he was faultless, never seemed to recover from bringing "Joe's" family with him. While the two fellas that had a beer apologized for that (no real reason to, but they were being amicable) neither "Joe" nor Prideful guy ever did, despite a great bit of talk about "respecting" the others and understanding they (being new) needed to conform, etc. Prideful guy had too much ego wrapped up in "Joe" who embarassed the living daylights out of him- and Prideful guy was never even told the half of it, that's the bad part!

Morale of the story, people in glass houses and all that and of course, it's MUCH easier to come and discuss something privately then make a big stink about it and make yourself look foolish. And of course it's Scriptural as well- Matthew 18:15

The friendship was salvaged with Prideful guy, "Joe's" wife thought they would be invited to a function again (that was hillarious) but of course they never were.

I've seen people argue and not have any fellowship over minor doctrinal points like this more than a few times.

[rice paddy daddy]

You know, at one time there were guys who I would literally risk my life for (and did, once) but that was a relationship formed under immense duress. I honestly don't know if I could rise to that level again for anyone other than my wife and kids. I learned not to let anyone get that close to me again, it hurts too much when they are gone.
That said, it is in my genes to help those who need it, and I'd like to think I can be depended upon. But I hope I'm never put in the position to have to go out under fire and bring someone in, because I might. I would rather die in my sleep at a ripe old age.
If we meet at a campout, please do not think that because I'm shy and quiet that I do not care about you. It is a built in self defense mechanism for my emotions. I have no doubt that the fellows I met at Douglas a couple years ago (and at Wendy's not long ago) would make good squad mates.
So, I guess my honest answer is I do not know and hope to never find out.

[Rmplstlskn]

That is quite a mess 1Admin on that experience... I too have seen such oil & water confrontations among "brothers & sisters" of faith... It is indeed sad and grievous. Sadly, too many seem to be like Prideful Guy and Joe's family. I have seen it in Christianity and within Hebrew Roots...

There is a family near me that I had high hopes of bonding with further and more seriously, but I can no longer deal with the "My research has given me the correct way, all others are in darkness and support satanic lies, deceived in darkness, etc..." attitude they have when conversations get into spiritually deep waters.

Me, I am of the belief that I and I alone am responsible to the Messiah FOR ME, and I am not responsible for anothers faith, they are. So I have a very laizze-faire, libertarian view on religious relations. I have strong beliefs, deep convictions, and Scripture to back it up, but I share it in love and mercy, knowing we are all on different levels of understanding, and I do not beat anyone over the head if they do not see what I see. Indeed recently, I had to major repent of false doctrines I not long ago held, now knowing that we know LESS than we can even imagine about YWHW and the Faith of the Saints. So I have become even more accepting of people with different views and convictions...

It all is good as long as I am not FORCED to live as others deem "righteous," nor am I shunned if I don't hold to the beliefs of the majority. And I attempt to do the same. Rather we respect our differences and embrace our "iron-sharpens-iron" discussions.

GOSSIP and "lashon hara (evil tongue)" is a group killer. It sounds like Prideful Guy learned a lesson and will hopefully know what "friends of his" are suitable for his "group" after that event...

One thing I often bump into at "get togethers" of differing religious beliefs is food related. I no longer eat pork/swine or ocean crawlers, and I have no problem accepting as friend and hanging with peoiple who do eat it. But when I POLITELY avoid or refuse to eat their BBQ pork or shrimp and they get their undies in a wad about it, then I begin to know that they are most likely not a group for me and my family. And if the persecution knives come out when I answer why when asked, I again know I am in a non-compatible crowd... They think I judge them, but really I am just guarding my OWN convictions by refusing to partake, no big deal made of it by me. Accept me as I am, just as I accept you as you are...

Same thing with Easter & Christmas holidays... My friends are free to keep Easter & Christmas, but don't get all up in my Kool-Aid when I choose to keep Pesach and Sukkot instead...

That said, the group MUST have the same God/Elohim, and believe Scripture is His Word to mankind. I could not "commune" with a group of athiests, wiccans, muslims, or other DIFFERENT religion in the long-term... I accept them as people, but not as my fox-hole, survialist community members.

As you often post 1Admin, community is a HARD THING! Almost insurmountable odds...

Rmpl

[Chief]

guys, i quit asking the greek question. most men would say no. the older the man was, the more likely i would get an affirmative answer. the no's always went something like this.
"this would be a time to bow before God and pray that he will rescue her."
" i am very important to our retreat group. if i got hurt or killed it would be a great loss to the group."
"we have 2 children. you are talking about a suicide mission. the crowd would kill you. i would need to stay home to provide for our children as they grow up."

here's what dawned on me. if these males would not go attempt to rescue their wives from fire, there is no way they would come to my rescue.

but i found out a lot about a lot of people during that time.
that is such a good thing.

That is an awesome question to ask. I just can