Where Are the Sheepdogs? Aurora, Colorado Shooting

[WiseOwl]

This dude was shooting fish in a cup. The only escape you had was if God wanted you still on Earth or the dude just missed. No way to play devils advocate. This was as senseless and sporadic an act that I have ever seen. Instances like this is why we need public hangings. He should have been hung by 6pm today.

One observation I made last night when we went up to the next county to Target (ironic name huh?) was I saw 3 people openly carrying within 20 mins. I have never seen 3 people openly carrying in the 10 years I have been going there.

[Patriot Prepper]

I think there are a few people who are not accurately accessing the situation. Compare it to a self defense scene. For example: You are facing someone who draws on you. You have a choice, either stand there or draw your weapon. The person drawing on you has one target to aim at. You are his target. What are the odds of you getting shot?

Now in the theatre, there were hundreds of people, and one gunman. The odds of the gunman singling you out is maybe 20 to one, 50 to one, a 100 to one. You have better odds of surviving in the theatre than facing a person who is drawing on just you.

Or what if you are facing two people drawing on you? Would that be worse than being in a theatre surrounded by hundreds of people with only one gunman? In my opinion I would rather be in the theatre with a gunman who is not focused on just me.

When I was involved in my first gunfight, there were several shooters, and they were focused on me and my client. I would take the movie theatre situation over that any day of the week.

Just because there are multiple rounds being fired, the person is dressed in black, and has body armor (which can be defeated) does not make your odds any worse. Why freak yourself out? In my opinion because the shooter is not focused on just you, your odds of surviving are greater. Count the number of people who survived versus the number who were killed and injured. And no one attempted to defend themselves.

One guy said the shooters boots brushed his head, while he hid on the ground. Do you think he might have been able to tackle the guy from behind?

I am not quarterbacking but if anyone thinks that a self defense situation involving firearms is going to be a piece of cake and that you have all the time in the world to think it through, I think you would be mistaken.

Do the math and it is hard to disagree that your odds would be better in the theatre than they would be facing one or two shooters head on with guns pointed at you. If you don't think you had a chance in the theater what makes you think you would have a chance on the streets against multiple shooters?

[monkeybird]

FYI -

Currently in Aurora, Colorado, where the shooting took place, it is already unlawful to carry a concealed "dangerous weapon," discharge firearms, unless by law enforcement on duty or on shooting range, and have loaded firearm in motor vehicle.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/ron-meyer/au...on-theater-had

[xdpatriot]

FYI -



http://cnsnews.com/blog/ron-meyer/au...on-theater-had

Seems like a good reason to not be there.

[WILL]

I think there are a few people who are not accurately accessing the situation. Compare it to a self defense scene. For example: You are facing someone who draws on you. You have a choice, either stand there or draw your weapon. The person drawing on you has one target to aim at. You are his target. What are the odds of you getting shot?

Now in the theatre, there were hundreds of people, and one gunman. The odds of the gunman singling you out is maybe 20 to one, 50 to one, a 100 to one. You have better odds of surviving in the theatre than facing a person who is drawing on just you.

Or what if you are facing two people drawing on you? Would that be worse than being in a theatre surrounded by hundreds of people with only one gunman? In my opinion I would rather be in the theatre with a gunman who is not focused on just me.

When I was involved in my first gunfight, there were several shooters, and they were focused on me and my client. I would take the movie theatre situation over that any day of the week.

Just because there are multiple rounds being fired, the person is dressed in black, and has body armor (which can be defeated) does not make your odds any worse. Why freak yourself out? In my opinion because the shooter is not focused on just you, your odds of surviving are greater. Count the number of people who survived versus the number who were killed and injured. And no one attempted to defend themselves.

One guy said the shooters boots brushed his head, while he hid on the ground. Do you think he might have been able to tackle the guy from behind?

I am not quarterbacking but if anyone thinks that a self defense situation involving firearms is going to be a piece of cake and that you have all the time in the world to think it through, I think you would be mistaken.

Do the math and it is hard to disagree that your odds would be better in the theatre than they would be facing one or two shooters head on with guns pointed at you. If you don't think you had a chance in the theater what makes you think you would have a chance on the streets against multiple shooters?

If you were talking to me, I think you're half right. I agree that a one on one shooting where you have been targeted is also a bad proposition. I don’t think the sheep dog in the theater situation is any better proposition. They’re both equally deadly.

In the theater case you may initially have some element of surprise, but there are a few things that make this a very bad situation for a sheep dog. First, there are alot of friendlies in the room. That shouldn't stop Mr. Sheep Dog from engaging, but he has to make sure he's aiming as best he can. Second, the bad guy is wearing alot of body armor and our sheep dog may not know it. That's a game changer that definitely puts Mr. Sheep Dog at a disadvantage. Third, I believe the bad guy used some form of gas or pepper spray on the theater(hence him wearing a gas mask). That makes seeing and breathing difficult which would definitely disadvantage the sheep dog. Fourth, the bad guy definitely had firepower superiority over the average CCW sheep dog. For example, my 7 shot .380 sub-compact CCW really wasn't designed to go head to head against that type of threat.

Long story short, I think Mr. Sheep Dogs element of surprise would be short lived once he started shooting. Considering the body armor, gas, friendlies in the way, low visibility and limited ammunition issues for the sheep dog, as I said earlier, unless he was somehow uninjured and right next to the perp, it's going to be a very challenging situation to come out on top of. Not that it can't be done or I wouldn't try. PS- I've been in a gun fight too and shot in the leg. I prevailed so bravado aside, I speak from experience.

[Patriot Prepper]

If you were talking to me, I think you're half right. I agree that a one on one shooting where you have been targeted is also a bad proposition. I don’t think the sheep dog in the theater situation is any better proposition. They’re both equally deadly.

In the theater case you may initially have some element of surprise, but there are a few things that make this a very bad situation for a sheep dog. First, there are alot of friendlies in the room. That shouldn't stop Mr. Sheep Dog from engaging, but he has to make sure he's aiming as best he can. Second, the bad guy is wearing alot of body armor and our sheep dog may not know it. That's a game changer that definitely puts Mr. Sheep Dog at a disadvantage. Third, I believe the bad guy used some form of gas or pepper spray on the theater(hence him wearing a gas mask). That makes seeing and breathing difficult which would definitely disadvantage the sheep dog. Fourth, the bad guy definitely had firepower superiority over the average CCW sheep dog. For example, my 7 shot .380 sub-compact CCW really wasn't designed to go head to head against that type of threat.

Long story short, I think Mr. Sheep Dogs element of surprise would be short lived once he started shooting. Considering the body armor, gas, friendlies in the way, low visibility and limited ammunition issues for the sheep dog, as I said earlier, unless he was somehow uninjured and right next to the perp, it's going to be a very challenging situation to come out on top of. Not that it can't be done or I wouldn't try. PS- I've been in a gun fight too and shot in the leg. I prevailed so bravado aside, I speak from experience.

Was not necessarily addressing you. Can you name a self defense situation that is a good "proposition?"

In the situation I was engaged in, it was at night, 4 of July, and crowded also. That of course makes things difficult. But many self defense situations are in crowded areas. It should not deter anyone from defending themselves.

Body armor certainly does not make a person invincible - I wear it and believe me, I would not want to be shot. There are ways to defeat armor, which I do not want to address.

The gas should not deter someone from defending themselves. It dispersed well. One witness watched the whole incident and gave a detailed report. The gas did not seem to impact his ability to view the situation. I have been tear gassed, the response depends on vicinity. A theater is a big place. There was also a person who hid on the ground and said the shooters boots brushed his head as he walked by - this person did not say anything about gas. Another witness said he saw the shooter, eye to eye, and could see the intensity in the shooter's eyes. Gas is a disadvantage if you are extremely close to it. But not something that automatically renders someone useless.

Yes, your 7 round .380 is without doubt not the best weapon for that situation, and would not have as much impact on body armor as a larger caliber. I own several .380s as backups, but never carried one as a primary weapon. I am a die hard .45 guy, but also use 9mm. Friends who were wearing body armor and got shot said it's a little like getting hit with a baseball bat.

Bottom line, I agree with and have thought about what you and others are saying. Yes it would be difficult, but it usually is. Seldom is a self defense situation a joy or simple task, even when guns are not involved.

What intrigues me is that many people believe, with 100% certainty, that it was an impossible situation - that nothing could be done. If one holds that type of attitude, in any of life's encounters, whether self defense, business, or survival, it is a guarantee of failure. If you believe it can't be done, it becomes like a self fulfilling prophesy. In survival situations, there are people who die because they believe it is impossible. And then there are people who faced extreme conditions where it was unlikely they would live, yet pushed themselves and survived. So I wonder, why so many people are willing to so quickly think that nothing could be done. Too tough, too many obstacles, etc.

I have always believe I can do it. That does not guaranty that I will always succeed. But that is how I approach everything in life. I am a high risk taken in personal things, and business. I push myself, believing I can do it. And I believe that attitude will give you an edge. In the shooting incident, I believe on Sheepdog willing to take the risk, could have stopped the gunman in his tracks. I might be wrong, but I might be right. You can never hit a home run if you don't stand up and bat.

I do not want to say, you are wrong or right. And cannot say that my point of view is wrong or right. I am only stating that if I were there, I would take that risk and make a move. Maybe I would die. So be it. A greater place awaits me.

My belief and hope is that there are more sheepdogs, who will stand up to the bullies of the world and save lives. Thanks for your point of view. God bless you.

[Rmplstlskn]

What intrigues me is that many people believe, with 100% certainty, that it was an impossible situation - that nothing could be done.

Nothing is 100%, but I was in an Orlando IMAX watching Bat Man only 12 hours after the shooting in CO, and I observed the following:

1. The best IMAX seating is in the middle of the rows, from the middle of the theater back. It was PACKED. Only Spiderman himself could have gotten out of there quickly, let alone run at an attacker at any of the exit doors. In "stadium style" seating, you have no cover, only concealment. Dropping to the floor will hide you, but may also get you crushed and trampled. LESSON: Chose your seating WISELY, even if it means not the best view or perspective.

2. From what I know at this time, the shooting happened quickly... Even getting out of the row in normal times for bathroom or popcorn takes tens of seconds and multiple navigations around knees and toes. The only people capable of stopping the shooter were those NEAR the attacker. Otherwise, it is not happening... LESSON: See Lesson #1 above. Have an AISLE seat but not so close to an exit that you are the FIRST person shot... Every theater will have different "sweet seats" for the armed citizen...

3. The Bat Man movie had so much gunfire and explosions, it would take muzzle flashes off the screen, in the dark, to get ones attention... The IMAX movie was that loud! I had to plug my ears several times... It would be seconds if not more to realize a gunman was letting loose from some side location... If behind you, it may take even longer to know something is not right, like blood spray and bodies falling...

4. Orlando theater had a NO GUN policy. So you either carry and risk arrest, or you don't carry... Life is all about playing the odds... I did not see any additional security, except for the Manager "eyeing" everyone as they walked in to the theater from the rope lines of people waiting to enter. I'm glad it wasn't turned into a TSA pat-down and strip search...

So all the talk about what someone should have done, even Nut-n-Fancy's video on this shooting & sheepdogs, is all good discussion banter, but I think REALITY is, these people were carnival targets to the shooter and only those close ever had a chance of doing anything...

[BioG8r]

Seemed Appropriate


We all know it seems it's about time for all to understand.

[Patriot Prepper]

[ATTACH]1182[/ATTACH]
We all know it seems it's about time for all to understand.

Love the message on the graphic - how true!!!!

[Patriot Prepper]

Instead of thinking it was impossible for someone to defeat the shooter, perhaps it is more plausible to admit that no one attempted it. Maybe there were no sheepdogs. It appears that there is no report anyone stepping up and saying, they tried to stop the shooter and found it was impossible.

My conclusion which some may disagree with is that our society has lost much of its ability or willingness to defend themselves and others.

I ask where are the sheepdogs? But we really will find it hard to answer that question. The truth is we don't know. Were they missing? Did they access the situation and believe it was better to do nothing? Or did they cower in the face of danger? Obviously I cannot answer those questions without speculating. But one has to admit, it is a challenging question for all CCW holder to think about.

If nothing else we do need to appreciate life, and live it in its fulness. And we need to train more, be more aware, and help others learn to defend themselves. That is all I can hope for. God bless.

[WILL]

Was not necessarily addressing you. Can you name a self defense situation that is a good "proposition?"

Absolutely. You're in a convenience store shopping when a robber enters with a knife and demands money from the clerk. He's focused on the clerk. Or better yet, you see him in the parking lot as he approaches. He's wearing a ski mask and carrying the bowie knife openly as he walks towards the glass door. I'd friggin shoot him through the door before he ever made it into the store. There's absolutely no reason, other than a robbery, why someone would be behaving like that in Florida. That's a high survival odds event for the good guys. Big difference between that and the theater shooting.

[Mjollnir]

[QUOTE=Patriot Prepper;43537]
My conclusion which some may disagree with is that our society has lost much of its ability or willingness to defend themselves and others.
QUOTE]

I have to agree with you. Perfect example in the video below. Gutless coward left his kids and their mother in there to be killed and not only ran out but jumped in their car and drove off.

[monkeybird]

What a disgusting example of extreme self centeredness. How could anyone, male or female, leave their children to be shot!

[BioG8r]

I'm sure the parents and in-laws are so proud!

[WILL]

Absolutely. You're in a convenience store shopping when a robber enters with a knife and demands money from the clerk. He's focused on the clerk. Or better yet, you see him in the parking lot as he approaches. He's wearing a ski mask and carrying the bowie knife openly as he walks towards the glass door. I'd friggin shoot him through the door before he ever made it into the store. There's absolutely no reason, other than a robbery, why someone would be behaving like that in Florida. That's a high survival odds event for the good guys. Big difference between that and the theater shooting.

Here's a great sheep dog story...

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx#.UA2VvEpa_7E.facebook