Our Economy

[BioG8r]

Because there are so many places and threads this pertains to I started a new Thread here.

I do NOT believe everything I read, but as an explaination of where we are and how we got there I thought this was very appropriate.

http://www.businessinsider.com/politics-economics-facts-charts-2012-6#so-go-elect-someone-who-can-fix-it-63

I do see that as we "Boomers" age, we are a drain on society as a whole (sarcastically said)
We paid our way and this kind of says "thanks for the money but,,,"
It also says time for the rich to take a break from sucking the marrow out of their companies and ventures and realize all will crumble unless they limit their profit taking to a reasonable level.

PLEASE take the time to view all of the slides and think about the "Possible Solutions".
We as an American society have to come up with a solution to this or we are doomed to use our preps and live life as best we can with little to no debt and with self reliance. (again, said sarcastically to support my opinion to the solution.)

[610Alpha]

Slide 37 of 63 is an overall statement, I know for a fact my state is so far in the Red that even after raising the personal income tax 66% it didn't even make a dent in our states financial problems.

The slides talked a lot about debt, I personally lead Financial Peace University at my Church to help people get out of debt and save for their future. Whether it is this class or another class we need to be teaching/talking about personal finance. It is 80% behavior 20% head knowledge.

Here is video of the CEO of Honeywell talking about our economy and situation and I believe he talks about the social programs that need to be reformed:

http://honeywell.feedroom.com/?fr_story=94a8660df48bbc6433eca427b3060d0c4882c513&rf=bm

[BioG8r]

Kudos 610Alpha,
I also try to "convince" young people to avoid the debt situation that leads to a bit, bridle and saddle!
It only makes sense to live within your means. Gratification should NOT be tied to debt, yet that seems to be the American way!
I, due to age, am very concerned about Social Security being reduced/reformed in a negative way to ME, My younger days were not spent thinking about the retirement situation and different ways of insuring it. I depended on the G to return my investment and provide a reasonable living in my soon to be elder years.
I do have some retirement investments but seriously lacking, vast majority was the SS tax....

[SeldomSeenSlim]

The problem most folks have in dealing with economic issues is that they expect things to work like they think it should and not how it actually does. There are greedy people that will lie, cheat and steal. There are stupid people that will do stupid things that affect everyone. There are selfish people that will purposefully do something that hurts others just to get ahead. It amazes me that people are shocked when somebody steals or cheats to make millions or billions. For as long as there has been money there have been people that would do anything to get more of it. It's not like it's a new thing, the numbers have just gotten bigger.

[1Admin]

Responsibility. That's really where things have broken down in my opinion.

Personal responsibility- taking care of one's own health, finances, retirement plans, staying out of or getting out of debt.

Business responsibility- I don't give a damn if the CEO of a major company makes 10 million a year, that's called the free market system and some semblance of it still exists. Now if that company dumps toxic waste into water, it should pay some serious fines, if that CEO robs the company blind leaving shareholders and employees hanging, he should be hunted down and killed- seriously. Do that once, hell make a gameshow of it and I guarantee you some pansy arse executive will not abscond with the company's money again.

MOST businesses in the U.S. are small businesses- Mom and Pop type deals, less than a hundred employees, small overall sales numbers, etc. Those businesses are the ones that get wrecked under all this socialist crap that's came our way/is coming our way. Enron wouldn't have been overly affected by the new health care stuff, but Manny's Pizza might be.

Also, people that have only ever worked for someone else tend to confuse business types and lump both together. If you have a small biz, your automatically of the same ilk as Enron now a days in some (socialist) programmed minds. You hear disdain when you hear these types say things like "well he's in business." As if going into business means you enter into a contract with Lucifer himself. Contrary to popular belief, their are some small business owners out there that will not sell their soul, rip you off, etc. for a buck.

Their are scummy ba$tards everywhere in the world folks, in politics, in education, in business, in medicine, in police, in the military. We deal with a lot of small businesses with one of our other businesses. Like a retarded boy scout, I believed a lot of the "I can't pay, I'm so poor" type BS from some of these types early on. Then I'd start listening/watching a little closer. The guy that owed you a couple hundred bucks he "couldn't pay" would be wheeling a 72" flatscreen out of Walmart. Hell I had a 1990's small TV. The guy that was six months behind that kept telling you this month he would pay, was upgrading his business location/running out in the middle of the night. Even some that were "pillars" in the various communities, that were church leaders, community leaders, etc. were totally ok with leaving someone hanging financially for something they owed.

Yet their was others that sometimes were a little rough around the edges, maybe drove a harder bargain than the rest, maybe seemed a little upfront at times, that paid their obligations. Some of these types were probably cast outs in their communities, wouldn't be looked upon as "good people" by some members of the community. I have MORE RESPECT for them than the ones described in the paragraph above.

Moral of the story is scumbags are everywhere, they don't always wear the business suit of an exec or a politician ;)

The system isn't working right now because honestly, we don't really have a true free market system. We have this ba%tardized conglomeration of socialism and capitalism. The system needs to be fixed. More importantly, people need a HEART CHANGE.

Socialism, socialist talk, blaming "big corporations", etc. is NOT the answer.

[BioG8r]

make a gameshow of it and I guarantee you some pansy arse executive will not abscond with the company's money again.

Running Man, I Like it!

I agree with you the rest of what you said. I do agree with the free market system and I love it, but when the biggies take soo much, the employees live on scraps, I feel it has gone toward slavery, or sweat shops.
Ditching Retirement promises-responsibilities at the very end, taking advantage of low level employees because they are scrounging for jobs and the like are just not good practices and seem to happen all too often. Goes back to what you said, Personal Responsibility!

[1Admin]

I get what your saying. To me the "I only make $12. an hour and the CEO makes millions" thing is just another time to VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Don't like what your making? Don't like your job? Get the frig out of there! Find new work, start a business, go back to school, etc.

To me, it's similar to the "those evil credit card companies raped me on interest rates." NO, you put yourself in that situation. Last I checked Chase and MBNA did not 'acquire' you at birth. You OBLIGATED YOURSELF.

Hey I've been there, it sucks, no doubt there. At one point I was over $20K in debt just with CC's. You know what, I owned my land and homes free and clear, I could have said "screw it" and filed Chapter 13 or whatever the hell it's called- I didn't. It sucked. But for about 2 years - 2 very slow years as far as income goes- we sucked it up and put almost every extra buck towards our debt. One by one we paid off, cut up and said bye bye to cards. Why? Responsibility. What goes around comes around or for the more biblical view- "Whatever a man sows the same shall he reap." Had I said "screw it" on the $20K somewhere along the lines someone would have gotten me for $20K. I believe this with all my heart. Heck, last two years Chase Visa has bought me 8 to 10 ounces of silver a year for free ;) How's that for changing the relationship?

Folks, their is always going to be differences in what people make, their status in life, etc. Often times, not always but often times, these things happen because of CHOICES. Choices made DAILY, choices made REGULARLY. GOOD choices will usually lead to good things. Bad choices generally tend to lead to bad things. Often times people think only of the SHORT TERM in their choices, cutting corners that screws them in the LONG TERM.

I could show pics of a fairly nice little house that's completely paid for and new. It's well built, bulletproof and has some nice amenities. The most important part- it's paid for. I could tell you the story of the people that own that nice house and how they rarely ever go anywhere, how they have never been to gay loving disneyland or any of the other stupid trips that a typical family thinks you can't live without. I could tell you how they have eaten rice and lentils for years, how they keep and drive cars till their wheels fall off, how they never pass up a chance to make a side buck, even if it's shoveling dirt in the 110 heat, how they give to others, how they have put all their money back into their businesses, their land, etc. how they have sacrificed....... But all you would see is the nice house and go "oh they must be rich." Nope, they are smart, and they made GOOD CHOICES. Choices like not going to disneyland and working on their house on the weekends, choices like not buying an Ipad and putting that $600. on the house, choices like not having to have a huge truck and squeezing into a small truck, not having to have a mommy bus SUV for the 2.5 children but all anyone would see if the house, you can't see the sacrifices.

You see, our eyes are programmed to see the shiny, the valuable, this transmits directly to the emotion of ENVY. And if someone has something we do not, we envy them. Oh, now don't act all pious on me, we ALL do that, it's called human nature. Yet we never see and rarely think about the SACRIFICES and the CHOICES made daily that got that person to that point.

It's the same way in business. We see someone making money, having a nice shop, etc. and we envy them. What about the sacrifices they made to get there? Few people just have successful businesses dropped in their lap, and fewer still keep that sort of thing going if they did. Why? Because THEY did not sacrifice to make that happen, so it has no value to them.

The CEO that made choices and went and got an MBA instead of fudging around in the school, he made choices. Unless he had the proverbial "silver spoon" he probably made SACRIFICES also. Either way, he had a CHOICE.

The guy that got drunk all the damn time, never thinks of bettering himself, bought a bunch of crap he can't afford, spends half his paycheck on beer, cigarettes and lotto tickets, he's making choices also. And now, watching the programming box (TV), he has an excuse for why he hasn't amounted to shiite in his life- da man. Da man is holding him down. Da man can be the gubmint, da man is USUALLY his boss, da man can be anyone that has made it further in life than he has. He's got his excuse and all he needs is a few corporate scandals, bad examples of business leaders, etc. to justify his thinking. Hell, he probably doesn't even realize this programming has taken hold of him.

This happens all the time with so called "patriots". Their thinking is more socialist than capitalist, but they don't even realize it.

And Bio- this is NOT directed at you, just at the topic in general. One of my pet peeves as you can see.

[MustangGal]

I think another problem with our society/economy is we (society as a whole) have taught our children they are too good to work in a factory or manufacturing job. When I worked in a poultry processing plant, there were three kinds of people. The first were the hard workers, they might not have liked the job they were assigned, but they did it, and did it well. They always came to work, because they didn't get paid if they didn't work. The second kind of people did what they had to to get by, no more, no less. They worked the attendence system to get the maximum days off, but always kept a cushion for emergencies. The third group expended a great deal of time and energy getting out of actually working. They were frequently fired for missing too much work. Really, they thought they were too good to work, but they had to get money somehow, because their parents were unable or unwilling to fund them any longer.

[1Admin]

The envy and "little man can't get ahead" BS mantra plays into survivalism also guys, don't kid yourself.

Post pics of a solar system, a bunch of gear or food storage, some high end gear. What is the FIRST thing that's usually posted? It's definitely NOT "nice stuff, congratulations you must have scrapped and sacrificed to get to where your at!" No it's usually something to the tune of " Man, that must be nice, I'm just a working stiff, I'm not rich...."

Yet we make CHOICES and SACRIFICES to get where we are in our preps also.

How often do you hear this BS "no one could do what they did in that book" (Rawles book Patriots) garbage (referring to the "groups" setup and retreat). You hear that a lot. Yet if you read between the lines, he mentions not taking elaborate vacations, how it took time, etc. NO ONE FOCUSES ON THAT. We focus on the "stuff" and then compare how far they are compared to how far along we are, then the excuses/rationalizing comes into play "they must be rich" type stuff.

In meeting literally thousands of like minded people over the last 26 years, I haven't met many "rich" preppers. I do know a few like myself that have BEEN AT IT A LONG TIME and took it seriously enough (back to that damn CHOICES thing again) to make consistent good choices in their preps and OVER TIME that played out into a nice retreat, good training, decent supplies, etc.

Yet here again, what is it that we FOCUS on? The stuff, the retreat, the NVD's, thermal, food storage, shelter/whatever that "we" personally don't have. Do we focus on the SACRIFICES the person made to get where they are at? Nope. Nor do we think about the SACRIFICES that person might have made to get where he's at.

If we want to get ahead in life, in our preps, at work, etc. we need to make good choices, choices that work well for the LONG TERM.

Sometimes that means sacrificing some short term desire/ perceived pleasure (getting a six pack of beer every night, smoking cigarettes at $5. pack, buying stupid lotto tickets, driving faster than we can afford to drive, etc.) in order to make our LONG TERM plans happen.

[miked2345]

Bravo.... Well said.

It is all about choices. My wife worked for over 20 years in daycare centers, the last 10 years at one center as a lead teacher. She was like 2nd in charge there, so she saw all the parent/children records. Many of these parents got state aid for their kids' daycare fees, because they were "to poor". Yet time and time again, these same "poor folks", getting state aid, showed up in the most expensive shoes, the latest fashion clothing, fancy painted finger nails. Then they would complain that they were to poor to pay the small 10 to 15% of the daycare fee that the state didn't cover!! My wife wanted to just scream... Mean while, we're shopping the lastest chinese fashions at Walmart, trying to do the right thing and pay our bills and hang on to the middle class dream....

[WILL]

Bravo.... Well said.

It is all about choices. My wife worked for over 20 years in daycare centers, the last 10 years at one center as a lead teacher. She was like 2nd in charge there, so she saw all the parent/children records. Many of these parents got state aid for their kids' daycare fees, because they were "to poor". Yet time and time again, these same "poor folks", getting state aid, showed up in the most expensive shoes, the latest fashion clothing, fancy painted finger nails. Then they would complain that they were to poor to pay the small 10 to 15% of the daycare fee that the state didn't cover!! My wife wanted to just scream... Mean while, we're shopping the lastest chinese fashions at Walmart, trying to do the right thing and pay our bills and hang on to the middle class dream....

I despise welfare slugs. Still, you have to recognize them for their ability to identify how the system they are operating in works and exploit it to the fullest. Their objective being to expend the least amount of work/energy in order to live life to its fullest, and not let any social stigmatism deter them from that goal. Those are qualities that are extremely pertinent to survival. Alot of survivalists tend to write off welfare slugs in a disaster, but in alot of ways they may be beter suited to survival than most. They are already used to living on the brink in a dangerous area. They are used to getting by with the minimum when necessary. They are very aware of their surroundings and are constantly looking for ways to exploit them to their benefit. They can and do operate in large family groups or clans when needed. In a ways, they are hungrier and more aggressive than the average Joe who punches the time clock at the plant every day. While their morals and values are dangerous, I suspect they would be adept at survival.

Anyhow, I digress from the OP. I worry more about the economy than most other survival hypothetical’s these days. Short of a Florida hurricane, wildfire, or other localized disaster or family problem, I see financial meltdown as the #1 high risk possibility. I feel like it’s not if we’re going to slip into the “greater depression”, it’s when. We’re doing everything we can to prepare for that. We are just about debt free, to include our mortgage.

As far as who to blame, it's too easy to single out the rich as scape-goats. I like to spread my anger out evenly over all demographics. Let's start with the perpetual welfare class this country has created. There are whole swaths of my county that fit this description. They are able bodied people who refuse to work, and depend on the government (read you and I) to take care of them. What's even more upsetting is how fast this class is growing. They reproduce like rabbits and their life philosophy seems to be getting more and more main stream. If that's not helping sink America, I don't know what is.

Then there's the middle class. Hard working, yes. Fiscally irresponsible, incredibly so. I watched over the past 15 years as many of my middle class friends engaged in the "keeping up with the Jones’s" mentality. They steadily spent more than they earned in order to live large, never increasing their savings, had little or no retirement plan, zero interest in paying off their debt, ect. I watched families making $100,000 a year who were driving $50,000 crew cab 4x4 trucks they didn't need, Wives in $50,000 Lexus cars they didn't need, living in pimped out $500,000 houses they had arm loan financing for, taking out home equity loans on that home to finance more lavish living, going out to eat at fancy restaurants all the time, maxed-out credit cards, basically spending more than they earned in every way. It was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. If they had been more responsible with their finances, this country wouldn't be in the trouble it's in, and there wouldn't be the class envy we're talking about now. The middle class contributed solidly to the fix America's currently in. No one seems to be mad at them though. It’s just easier to go after the rich. Not that the hyper-rich aren't an issue.


Huge concentrations of wealth in few hands has always led to revolution. Anytime you have an aristocratic group living lavishly while the masses struggle, there’s going to be trouble. Especially when it seems like the system they’re operating in seems rigged to perpetuate their status (thank you very much FED/central banks)

[1Admin]

Huge concentrations of wealth in few hands has always led to revolution. Anytime you have an aristocratic group living lavishly while the masses struggle, there’s going to be trouble. Especially when it seems like the system they’re operating in seems rigged to perpetuate their status (thank you very much FED/central banks)

Well said. And the conspiracy folks have always said that the aim of the bad guys was to destroy the middle class.

Honestly, I think the middle class will still exist, it will just be extremely smaller and more polarized. What defines the "middle class" any more anyways??

This sort of economic times tend to separate the wheat from the chaff.

We need to look at the bright side of things guys-

Our family went almost a year on around $400. income one year. You really learn what you do and don't "need" after a while of that. Some time later we got a big bump in business and got another business going. We looked back at and always remembered the "$400. year" and always strove to have OPTIONS. We were making some progress on CC debt, but not all that much. The typical thing I always mention, make a little progress, feel a little better about yourself, compare yourself to others "well at least we are not $40K in debt like so and so..." type stupidity. A couple years later we said to heck with it, got serious about getting out of debt and finished up April of 08. Thankfully the Lord's timing was much better than ours as we were out of debt after our "7 years of famine" while most of America was in debt just finishing up their "7 years of plenty" and just starting their "7 years of famine" (story of Joseph).

Had we had been through the bad times, we probably would not have CHANGED. Had we not went through the suffering, we would not have made the sacrifices.

You see all kinds of thinking people doing this same thing now, so I think that's the BRIGHT SIDE of this mess. The downside is of course, that most of them have less money to work with.

[BioG8r]

I get what your saying. To me the "I only make $12. an hour and the CEO makes millions" thing is just another time to VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Don't like what your making? Don't like your job? Get the frig out of there! Find new work, start a business, go back to school, etc.

I was a nontraditional student for that exact reason, went to college @26

To me, it's similar to the "those evil credit card companies raped me on interest rates." NO, you put yourself in that situation. Last I checked Chase and MBNA did not 'acquire' you at birth. You OBLIGATED YOURSELF.


The CEO that made choices and went and got an MBA instead of fudging around in the school, he made choices. Unless he had the proverbial "silver spoon" he probably made SACRIFICES also. Either way, he had a CHOICE.

This happens all the time with so called "patriots". Their thinking is more socialist than capitalist, but they don't even realize it.

And Bio- this is NOT directed at you, just at the topic in general. One of my pet peeves as you can see.

Didn't feel like it was directed at myself or my comments, but as I read back and through, I am afraid my true intent didn't come out when I mentioned reasonable profit taking and limiting salaries... I am NOT against being filthy wealthy, nor am I for socialistic business models.

With that being said I will use the exact picture of what brought this to the surface. I worked for a company in FL that had a great profit goal but had ZERO consideration for its blue collar employees, They depended on the employees to get fed up and walk, no permanent benefits and less issues with the long term employee problems. In fact the only long termers were illegals that had obvious faked documentation. Pay was minimum, Labor was maximum and of a disgusting nature, can't describe without ID'ing the Company.

Management, me unkowingly included, sucked every bit of gravy from the business and left many suffering poverty needlessly. A slight redistribution, that wouldn't have removed much from our pockets, woud have meant better job satisfaction and a living wage for all those involved.

We, as a company, broke a lot of rules/laws that did not need to be broken, just did it in the name of "A Little More Gravy". Early on I was purposely kept away from the main facility so I wouldn't see the evidence, When promoted to Production Manager, I was relocated to the main facility and had all info laid before me, I lasted another 3 months before I confronted the Owners, I was told if I couldn't "play the game" I needed to move on!
Sooo, that is exactly what I did. The job was a very good one from a salary POV, but I really had a hard time with the business model.
I see that type of mentality far too often...
I am all for getting rich on my ideas/decisions, or in my work because of profitability.
I just think it is wrong to rise high because I am standing on the bodies of those needlessly kept down because of my needless greed!

To a certain degree it is socialist thinking to say to a subordinate,,, "You helped me get here, have a piece of pie and enjoy a little gravy, you've earned it!" I prefer to think of it as being concerned about the future of my endeavors by caring for the "Whole Machine" and doing what my kindergarten teacher taught me - sharing.

For those just reading the posts; Please view the link in the beginning of the thread.

[WiseOwl]

Well said JRH.

I wish I could have met you and heard that conversation as a 19 year old kid. It would have done me a lot of good.

[610Alpha]

I can't stand that "Little man just can't get ahead" mentality that you mentioned....drives me crazy!! They could get ahead if they weren't so irresponsible with God's money.

No other country produces more millionaires than ours!! If it was easy everyone would be one.