Lessons Learned: Zimmerman vs. Martin

[Bearman202]

I haven't been following this very closely, but it did strike that there are a few lessons to be learned from even a superficial examination of the events that happened in Florida. I know I'm not getting them all, but I wanted to start the discussion, so please chip in. We can all stand to learn from this.

1. Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and he found it. He assigned himself as "block captain" or some such in a neighborhood patrol. He was being Captain America, and doing that now can get you into more trouble than you want to deal with.

2. Zimmerman called it in, then didn't disengage. Even after the 911 operator told him not to follow the kid, he did it anyway.

3. Zimmerman got close enough to the kid to engage him. Why? He could have backed off and let the designated law enforcement take care of it. I am not going to stand by and watch some thug rape or murder someone, but this was obviously not the case.

4. The kid was where he shouldn't have been. If you walk around a gated community at 3 a.m., somebody is going to wonder what you're up to. People live in gated communities because they're a little paranoid to begin with, and if you do anything even a little 'out of line' according to their perceptions, you're asking for trouble. The key phrase there is "their perceptions." Don't expect people to bother with the hard part, like thinking.

5. Zimmerman's life is now changed forever. No matter what comes of the trial, or charges, or whatever, he's screwed. He will spend every dime he has, or is likely to have in the foreseeable future, to keep out of prison.

6. Don't expect fair treatment. The media has the guy convicted, without even bothering to learn what really happened. The police originally said they weren't going to file charges, and then changed their minds after the media started doing their thing. What was originally a "no bill" turned into charges of "second degree murder" mainly because of the press.

7. The anit-gun people are looking for a cause, and you might be it. No matter how cut and dried, or how justifiable, if you use a gun and somebody ends up dead, they're coming after you. Again, I'm not going to stand and watch someone rape or kill someone for grins, and if someone pulls a gun on me they'd better be pulling the trigger at the same time, but it pays to be aware.

8. What Zimmerman did right: He stuck to his story. He felt his life was in danger, said that, and stuck with it. Don't even THINK about changing your story. Don't even THINK about showing the slightest bit of doubt. That will be translated into remorse, and you can't be sorry for something you had every right to do, right? If you project that you're sorry, you're saying that you could have avoided the situation or whatever. You tell the police that you did it, because your life or another person's life was in danger, and then you STFU! The ONLY thing you say to the police after that is, "I want a lawyer." Then you don't say another word until the lawyer gets there.

9. If you're involved in a situation where the other individual is a person of color, and it really doesn't matter which one, expect some idiot to find and release your home address. You will probably be able to sue the idiot later, like the old people are suing Spike Lee for telling the world that Zimmerman lived at their address, but it won't help you if the mob shows up and burns your house down with you in it.

10. Be aware, be aware, be aware. Have a backup plan, and then have a plan for when that falls apart.

Anybody else? I'm sure I didn't cover all the possibilities.

[monkeybird]

I agree wholehearted with your assessment. All this grief because Zimmerman decided to forget his was not a law enforcement officer.

[tech]

I agree wholehearted with your assessment. All this grief because Zimmerman decided to forget his was not a law enforcement officer.

Another assumption without substantiated proof (at this time.)

Bottom line is we will likely never know the truth - but rather only what the media/PTB wishes us to know.

[1Admin]

Agree with most of this. I had made the connection also- "gated community" = nice community, but that can be a stretch also.

I've seen section 8 apartment complexes that were "gated communities." Remember also the media has had their wordsmiths working over time on this story, remember Zimm was first "white" than later "white hispanic" now just hispanic.

[rice paddy daddy]

Very good post, bearman. Especially "don't go looking for trouble, you just might find it", and putting that first.
If Zimmerman had just observed and reported and not engaged all this may have been avoided.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

https://www.survivalandpreparednessforum.com/showthread.php?4124-Forget-the-Sideshow-What-Do-We-Learn

[protus]

I haven't been following this very closely, but it did strike that there are a few lessons to be learned from even a superficial examination of the events that happened in Florida. I know I'm not getting them all, but I wanted to start the discussion, so please chip in. We can all stand to learn from this.

1. Zimmerman went looking for trouble, and he found it. He assigned himself as "block captain" or some such in a neighborhood patrol. He was being Captain America, and doing that now can get you into more trouble than you want to deal with.

2. Zimmerman called it in, then didn't disengage. Even after the 911 operator told him not to follow the kid, he did it anyway.
He did disengage and he broke no laws by not obeying the "suggestion" of the dispacther that " he shouldnt do that". Zimm even said " Ok" when he was "asked" to not follow.

3. Zimmerman got close enough to the kid to engage him. Why? He could have backed off and let the designated law enforcement take care of it. I am not going to stand by and watch some thug rape or murder someone, but this was obviously not the case. Again see above. Martin attacked Zimm as zimm headed for his SUV after he stopped following Martin. There is an arial pic of t he townhomes and where martin ran off to puts him right at or near where zimms SUV was.

4. The kid was where he shouldn't have been. If you walk around a gated community at 3 a.m., somebody is going to wonder what you're up to. People live in gated communities because they're a little paranoid to begin with, and if you do anything even a little 'out of line' according to their perceptions, you're asking for trouble. The key phrase there is "their perceptions." Don't expect people to bother with the hard part, like thinking.

5. Zimmerman's life is now changed forever. No matter what comes of the trial, or charges, or whatever, he's screwed. He will spend every dime he has, or is likely to have in the foreseeable future, to keep out of prison.

6. Don't expect fair treatment. The media has the guy convicted, without even bothering to learn what really happened. The police originally said they weren't going to file charges, and then changed their minds after the media started doing their thing. What was originally a "no bill" turned into charges of "second degree murder" mainly because of the press.

7. The anit-gun people are looking for a cause, and you might be it. No matter how cut and dried, or how justifiable, if you use a gun and somebody ends up dead, they're coming after you. Again, I'm not going to stand and watch someone rape or kill someone for grins, and if someone pulls a gun on me they'd better be pulling the trigger at the same time, but it pays to be aware.

8. What Zimmerman did right: He stuck to his story. He felt his life was in danger, said that, and stuck with it. Don't even THINK about changing your story. Don't even THINK about showing the slightest bit of doubt. That will be translated into remorse, and you can't be sorry for something you had every right to do, right? If you project that you're sorry, you're saying that you could have avoided the situation or whatever. You tell the police that you did it, because your life or another person's life was in danger, and then you STFU! The ONLY thing you say to the police after that is, "I want a lawyer." Then you don't say another word until the lawyer gets there.

9. If you're involved in a situation where the other individual is a person of color, and it really doesn't matter which one, expect some idiot to find and release your home address. You will probably be able to sue the idiot later, like the old people are suing Spike Lee for telling the world that Zimmerman lived at their address, but it won't help you if the mob shows up and burns your house down with you in it.

10. Be aware, be aware, be aware. Have a backup plan, and then have a plan for when that falls apart.

Anybody else? I'm sure I didn't cover all the possibilities.

just saying

[JUSTIFIED]

Interesting points. I agree with most but there are a few details we don't know about for sure that, hopefully, will come out when this goes to trial. Too many conflicting testimonies, at this point. I agree with tech that we'll likely never know all of the truth other than what the pc media and politicians want us to know. Right or wrong, Zimmerman's life, as he knew it, is ruined.

Seems like if law enforcement had made public what they found out in their 5 hour interrogation of Zimmerman directly after the shooting we might not be taking the time and spending millions of tax dollars to take this to trial.

Comment and question: Law enforcement can't respond in a timely manner to every crime. Most of the time they can only get there to clean it up. If we don't have various forms of neighborhood watch systems how do we truly keep our neighbors safe? Also as social decline continues, violent crime rises. If they aren't armed how can they defend themselves?

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Comment and question: Law enforcement can't respond in a timely manner to every crime. They should be able to respond timely but they can't be there before or even as it happens in most cases Most of the time they can only get there to clean it up. If we don't have various forms of neighborhood watch systems how do we truly keep our neighbors safe? There is nothing wrong with neighborhood watches or just watching for your neighbor Also as social decline continues, violent crime rises. If they aren't armed how can they defend themselves?Nothing wrong with being armed BUT you are not the hunter of man as neighborhood watch, learn your role and stick to it. Like I said in the other thread you are not allowed offensive roles only defensive under law. If you become offensive without saving someones life you will surely go to jail at best and maybe even then not to mention civil suits

Lots of things arent "against the law" that are stupid such as getting so close to someone that you have invaded their personal area and made them vastly aware of your presence and brought a negative response back to you.
my 2 cents

[onebigelf]

The only thing Zimmerman did that was stupid was getting out of his vehicle and chasing Martin. If he'd stayed in the car there would have been no problem more than likely. That said, unless something comes out that contradicts Zimmerman's story, Martin responded to Zimmerman being stupid by being a punk-a$$ed THUG and got dead. Good. Freakin. Riddance. I shed not a single tear for his departure. Nothing I've seen in this about Martin and his family suggests to me in any way that his departure is a loss to society, or that he wouldn't have ended up being at best a burden to society and at worst a blight on society.

John

[BillM]

When you carry a firearm, you place yourself in a possition of having to become a gunfighter. You can no longer afford to become involved in a social argument or minor scuffle. If you do and you are loseing the fight, you face the possability of loseing control of your weapon. Policemen carry pepper spray, tasers and impact weapons to have less than leathal means of force in an effort to keep from having to use their firearms. They also carry "Soverign Immunity". This prevents an officer from being sued for anything he does that is in the line of duty. Civilians don't have this protection. There are valid reasons for civilans to go armed and it is their right to do so as long as they are legally entitled to do so. There are unintended consiquences to every action. Mr Zimmerman likely did not plan to kill anyone when he went out to patrol his neighborhood but anytime you are armed, it is possable !

[JUSTIFIED]

Lots of things arent "against the law" that are stupid such as getting so close to someone that you have invaded their personal area and made them vastly aware of your presence and brought a negative response back to you.
my 2 cents

Definitely agree Matt. I remember my conceal/carry instructor said to practice, "selfish defense". If you, family or someone with you isn't immediately threatened then walk away. If you come up on a situation that could turn violent and you don't know who's in the wrong?...walk away.

[JUSTIFIED]

The only thing Zimmerman did that was stupid was getting out of his vehicle and chasing Martin. If he'd stayed in the car there would have been no problem more than likely. That said, unless something comes out that contradicts Zimmerman's story, Martin responded to Zimmerman being stupid by being a punk-a$$ed THUG and got dead. Good. Freakin. Riddance. I shed not a single tear for his departure. Nothing I've seen in this about Martin and his family suggests to me in any way that his departure is a loss to society, or that he wouldn't have ended up being at best a burden to society and at worst a blight on society.

John

I agree John. Unfortunately this is going to continue to inflame emotions that are already out of control and the media will take ever opportunity to crucify the guy.

[JUSTIFIED]

When you carry a firearm, you place yourself in a possition of having to become a gunfighter. You can no longer afford to become involved in a social argument or minor scuffle. If you do and you are loseing the fight, you face the possability of loseing control of your weapon. Policemen carry pepper spray, tasers and impact weapons to have less than leathal means of force in an effort to keep from having to use their firearms. They also carry "Soverign Immunity". This prevents an officer from being sued for anything he does that is in the line of duty. Civilians don't have this protection. There are valid reasons for civilans to go armed and it is their right to do so as long as they are legally entitled to do so. There are unintended consiquences to every action. Mr Zimmerman likely did not plan to kill anyone when he went out to patrol his neighborhood but anytime you are armed, it is possable !

Excellent advice BillM. Matt sent this to me. You may have already seen this but I'll share it for anyone who might not have.

Rules For The Gunman


1). Don't carry the gun to make you a man. Carry because you are in fact a man.

2). Always carry your gun regardless of social pressures

3). If you can't physically carry a gun, always have a knife.

4). Whenever you carry a gun, also carry a knife...and some spare ammunition.

5). Carry the gun you can use best regardless of social fashion

6). Make sure you are good with that gun through continual and obsessive practice

7). Don't bluff or threaten with the gun. If you pull it, be certain you are justified and willing to use it.

8). Using it means shooting the other man or men in the chest and/or the face. Yes, it means killing.

9). If you can avoid having to shoot, it is a good thing, but do not second guess yourself once it has begun.

11). To facilitate the former, do not go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things at stupid times.

12). If you are involved in such activities, take a team with you....and rifles.

13). The default should be to mind your own business.

14). The only time minding your own business is superceded by getting involved is if what you see shocks the conscience of humanity and needs to be stopped.

15). The amount of violence you can justify and the number of rules you can break is directly proportionate to the level of evil displayed by your adversary.

16). Never apologize for using violence. Not only is it indicative of weakness but also of a lack of moral standing.

[Sourkraut]

My take on this situation is that we will never honestly know what really took place.

It was for sure, a tragedy for all involved.

But we can take from it that as a CCW holder, we'd best make sure of our responsibilities.
While we have the right of self defense, we should make sure that we're not putting ourselves
in untenable situations. You simply cannot push a conflict where your life isn't particularly in danger,
to one where it is....But again, we can't know what took place. Very sad......

Thanks, Sourkraut