Bunker or house... Need suggestions and opinions

[BAK]

Need some opinions from all the brain power and experience here.
My cousin and I are planning on buying some real estate 5 hours away from NYC in the next 18 months. Our plan was to buy land, immediately cache a decent amount of food and basic supplies and with in couple of years build a house on it with all the features one can think of/afford. Recently we watched Doomsday Bunkers and now he is convinced that after the cache we should buy the bunker and then, when ever we can afford it, build a house. I think we should go with the house first and the bunker eventually.

His valid points: both of us have careers to think of so we can't move there. We'll be there max once a month. A bunker is more secure and can be hidden from thieves. Price wise the bunker will cost a little more than the construction of a house. In case of SHTF situation the bunker will provide us with a safe zone.

My points- bunker is a lot less comfortable than a house in normal times. I want to be able to spend weekends there during normal times as well as SHTF times. We don't have to keep anything valuable in the house so there would be nothing to steal if it's found by low lifes. We can build a hidden underground room nearby out of a 6' diameter culvert to keep the valuables like guns and ammo. A house will have more that one entrance/exit/field of fire/observation. We will be stuck in it if we use it as last refuge from a roving band. Also land with a house on it will look less suspicious than a lot of construction in one spot with nothing visible. Permits and inspectors can be a PIA if they feel like you are doing something fishy.

Comments opinions and suggestions will be appreciated.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Tough one
Bunkers offer protection against natural stuff except floods and earthquakes which i'm still not convinced despite his claims they will survive an earthquake. His bunkers are supposed to have a second exit (never shown so maybe he has a little OPSEC). Dont let them put your generator like the one that got stolen on the show.
Permits and inspectors, if you are dealing with them then you have zero OPSEC because they WILL talk around town.
If you have a house then build a bunker it would look more natural to others as "just new construction" or putting in a cellar/storm shelter etc.
How warm would a bunker be in up north in winter? Heat, would the smoke from a fire or generator noise just blow OPSEC therby taking away from the "bunker" principle?
If I found/knew about a bunker as a bad guy or a desperate good guy and SHTF I'd just wait for you to show up then beg or fight my way in. Just a thought

[tech]

"We don't have to keep anything valuable in the house so there would be nothing to steal if it's found by low lifes."

Remember that wiring, plumbing and construction materials (windows, doors, cabinets, etc) have value as well. An uninhabited house in the middle of nowhere is nothing but an invitation to hoodlums. Keep in mind too that a 5 hour trip is likely to be closer to forty hours in a real $hi+ storm...if you can even get out of the city.

[BAK]

We always planned on having some remote video surveillance/security system in the house. The idea is that with the time it will take some possible thief to get through an reinforced door/windows and do some real damage, the local county/town police would have time to react. I know it's not an ideal 100 acre retreat in the middle of Idaho, but it's still far better than my parents house on 2 acres in New Jersey (our current BOL).

The idea with permits was brought up for a reason. I have experience in construction so with a little hired help from out of state, I could do a lot of the underground construction myself. No permits required for that :-) A house on the land would be cover for many other things in my opinion.

[Hidden Agenda]

"We don't have to keep anything valuable in the house so there would be nothing to steal if it's found by low lifes."

Remember that wiring, plumbing and construction materials (windows, doors, cabinets, etc) have value as well. An uninhabited house in the middle of nowhere is nothing but an invitation to hoodlums. Keep in mind too that a 5 hour trip is likely to be closer to forty hours in a real $hi+ storm...if you can even get out of the city.

Bingo. The key here is that (as I understand it) your BOL will be unoccupied for the vast majority of the time. That being said, I would definitely go with the bunker. Get it properly installed and secured and then start caching some of your supplies. You can always throw a relatively inexpensive storage building/shed/camper/cabin/mobile home/whatever on the property to camo the entrance to the bunker.

Please be diligent in your research and selection of your contractor/bunker supplier and of course the bunker itself.

[All Talk]

BAK,

I consider a "blockhouse" more essential than a bunker like those on the TV show. The latter are useful against rather dramatic physical (i.e. regional or greater) cataclysms, or I suppose the occassional tornado (not many of them in upstate NY). The bunker alone is terrible for protecting your land, any outdoor supplies, keeping a watch, etc. They don't have any oversight or counter-battery capabilities (that I've seen). And the air venting, etc make them anything but hidden. I wonder what a noxious molatav down one of those vent tubes would do?

HOWEVER, I wouldn't mind putting one under my house and buidl a house on top of it, using the house as opsec for the bunker, and in turn building a defesnivle blockhouse style home for the many other scenarios I think are moere likely/frequent. heck, even after the cataclysm, eventually I'd want to live ont he surface and \protect my domain.

But given that, why not just dig out a sub-basement, and trick that out with proper drainage, venitlation, reinforcement, etc. Pull permits for your extensive "wine cellar". Get the book, "How and Why to Build a Wine Cellar" which has all kinds of data as to the advantages of getting the floor of your wine cellar as deep as possible. Talk any one around's ear off about your passive wine cellar project, and how cool it is having it so deep. It helps if you say you plan to grow a vinyard on the property (anywhere near the fingerlakes?).

[BAK]

All Talk- Great points and I used them earlier in my argument. However I'm now concerned about the issues mentioned by Tech. I don't want to show up one weekend and find the house gutted with all the sinks and cabinets gone. Our only hope is to build the house reinforced so that breaking in would not be a piece of cake.

[antishot]

You say you want to put a house up sometime. What about building the bunker/basement out if concrete and just putting a stick frame up. If you did do that it wouldn't draw as much attention. I know around me we would just say ih look some mire flatlander are building a new hunting came.

[miked2345]

If you want food and supplies in your new BOL sooner than it takes to build something, how about renting a storage unit near that area? That way, if SHTF, you could have a cache of supplies already there, and not have to worry about lugging it all out of NYC at the sametime everyone else is trying to fight their way outa town. (I've been in NYC at rush hour on a normal day...)

[BAK]

We are planning on burying couple of containers with food and basic supplies (tools, ammo, medicine, etc) as soon as we buy the land. We are definitely not planning on driving an 18 wheeler with supplies out of NYC area after a major disaster (We are not that optimistic).
Problem with a plain stick frame is that it offers zero protection for anything larger than a slingshot or hotter than a BBQ next to it. I feel that it would be a waste of money to build it just to cover the entrance to the bunker. An old RV trailer would do the same job with none of the permits.
The main question is- build a reinforced but normal looking house to be used as a weekend getaway until SHTF or a bunker in the ground and something like an old live in trailer on top.

[Hidden Agenda]

We are planning on burying couple of containers with food and basic supplies (tools, ammo, medicine, etc) as soon as we buy the land. We are definitely not planning on driving an 18 wheeler with supplies out of NYC area after a major disaster (We are not that optimistic).
Problem with a plain stick frame is that it offers zero protection for anything larger than a slingshot or hotter than a BBQ next to it. I feel that it would be a waste of money to build it just to cover the entrance to the bunker. An old RV trailer would do the same job with none of the permits.
The main question is- build a reinforced but normal looking house to be used as a weekend getaway until SHTF or a bunker in the ground and something like an old live in trailer on top.

Again, an underground bunker will provide you with far better security as long as it is properly installed, secured and camouflaged. Beyond the SHTF stuff that can go wrong with your property (i.e. zombies, looters, etc...), think about the day to day stuff that can go wrong. An underground bunker will be much safer and easier to secure from real, everyday threats like trespassers, burglars/thieves, storms, wildfires, wildlife, etc...

[goatlady]

"An underground bunker will be much safer and easier to secure from real, everyday threats like trespassers, burglars/thieves, storms, wildfires, wildlife, etc... " Very true BUT don't you need the possibility of seeing these thing coming down the road and having a chance to take some action? Doesn't "field of fire" enter into the picture? I far prefer to "reach out and touch..." as the saying goes like about 200 yards or so.

[Klayton]

Sorry about my absence, had finals.

After reading the entire thread I am not exactly certain about a couple things.

1) Hoodlums? Seriously? I have yet to see hoodlums EVER just wander onto our vacation house in Michigan that is completely 100% empty 11 months out of the year. Also, it is only on a 5 acre plot, nestled in with other people's 5 acre plots. One time, the driveway alarm did trigger but when the sherriff got there he found a flyer on the door, traveling saleman. To this day I do not recall a single time ANYBODY drove down my grandfather's farm driveway that wasn't a relative or close friend. Hoodlums in the country are not as prevalent as some are leading you to believe. Granted NY the gloves are off so this part of my post may be invalid. Just one of the gazillion reasons I would never step foot in NY state let alone NYC.

2) The term bunker has MANY MANY definition. As a poor farmer, currently stuck for economic reasons in the suburbs, my idea of a bunker is NOT the steel tube from the latest Nat Geo Prepper show. But think more on the lines of a HUGE basement with a slab foundation, cinder block (or more cement depending on your money level). Make the ceiling tall though, the more air space the less chances of CO2 build up too fast if something goes wrong with your air intake and exhaust. Place some I beams across the top, followed by roofing. Then for OPSEC you are going to place a "hay" barn directly over it. This does TWO very imporant things: 1) blocks all the rain from directly reacting to your roof, and drastically cuts down on "future foundation leaks" 2) gives you a hidden entrance among the hay bails.
As a side bonus the stored hay will gradually spill over the dirt floor (your roof) to help conceal your location and your entrance can be hidden behind bails. Then you have a stockpile of hay for your dairy animals/horses (think working horses not thoroughbreds).
I have other ideas about secondary exits if you are interested.

You know its sad when you are in Clinicals, bored during lunch hour, and all you can think about is how you are going to set up your retreat when you finally get enough money for your farm. LOL

[antishot]

How do you plan on building your bunker? How much land are you looking to buy? I suggested that because us country folk know everyone know where they live and know everything about them you can say. So when someone new comes around they stick out like a sore thumb. And when people see backhoes and gravel trucks concrete trucks there'd will be talk lots if it. Land around here is 2k-2.5k per acre a 1 ackre lot with well, septic and electric pole with run you about 15k so maybe you could look for a place that is up for sale. A buddy of mine just bought a place with 7acres 1700sqft house and a steel pole barn for $35k.just a thought

[hua man]

How about an Underground Home? Best of both worlds. Comfort of home, safety of bunker. And they need not be dark and musty. A quick internet search would provide the info you need. And an old trailer placed on top would provide a kind of camo as to how you're really living. The would see an old mobile home, not your safehouse, pun intended.