Terrorism raid in a small town in Florida

[Bull]

i agree with matt, these people do sound like a terrorist group. They use fear, intimidation, and voilence to try to push their agenda, basicly the definition of terrorists.

All kinds of criminals use fear and intimidation as a tactic. "Assault" is almost just that: Putting someone in fear of bodily harm. "Battery" comes in with actual, physical, touching. But gangs, street thugs, drug dealers, and a bunch of other criminals use fear as a tactic. Look at the drug cartels the BATFE supplied with weapons. Heck, even politicians use fear as a tactic to accomplish their goals, which is why you see ads of people pushing Grandma off a cliff, over health care debates. My point is that inspiring fear shouldn't be the only, or overriding factor in being labeled as a terrorist. This group still sounds more like a cult type of gang, than a terrorist organization. I'm just saying that as SWAT teams, FBI, and other agencies begin to take down more criminals, if they start now, and continue to, label more of those groups as terroristic threats and organizations, it will seem more common place to the American population. Then, if political whims dictate, and because we have people like Napolitano and the DHS are already referring to right wingers, veterans, guns rights advocates, TEA party members, anti abortion advocates, and the like, as potential terrorists, I think it opens the door to use that term more loosely. Then, who in society is going to be against fighting terrorism? I think it could lead to abuse. I understand this group is probably horrible, and that they use fear, and unscrupulous methods to further their goal. Just saying that we should be careful with our labels. Look at the term "racist" now. It has been so over used, that now just about anything can be considered racism. I think it's another method for the government to slowly increase it's control, and spread it's tentacles. I don't think we should label every violent, criminal, wacko group as a terrorist group. Terrorism is too serious of a thing, that we shouldn't water down it's meaning by applying it too loosely to certain groups. If we find, or begin to hear, about all these new terrorist groups emerging as time goes on, then it makes perfect sense for the government to pass more laws, and increase their power, to deal with that threat right? Well, I think they have already gone too far, and this is more evidence of an expanding and growing police state in this country.

http://www.reveresride.net/2012/01/17/enemy-expatriation-act-hr-3166-is-the-final-link-in-our-chain-of-bondage/

http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/NDAA

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=2148

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ron-paul-calls-tsa-jack-booted-thugs-in-response-to-highway-checkpoints/

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220,0,3213641.story

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-officers-armed-with-semiautomatics-set-up-unannounced-id-checkpoint/

[Patriotic Sheepdog]

Knowing and proving are not the same. DAs and AUSAs are hard to convince sometimes.

Gotcha,
Thanks Matt

[nakattack]

Bull but these guys aren't using fear and intimidation to sell crack on the cornor or run a scam. they're using it to further their idioligical or political views. they claim they aren't part of the nation that they are separate which is as far as i can tell a political view. your average criminal isn't going to shoot a cop or a judge because they think they're being oppressed. they will do it while in the process or trying to escape or maybe revenge. anyway thats jut my opinion, in my eyes these guys are terrorists.

[Bull]

nakattack - I see your point. I guess I would compare these guys to the mafia, or large gangs. I suppose they use fear and all that to further their cause of being able to continue their criminal action, rather than pursuing a political ideology though. I think these people are going to be dealt with the same way, via FBU, SWAT, and what have you, in either case, affectively, so by labeling them as terrorists seems to only accomplish the political goal of getting more Americans eager for more government intervention to fight "domestic terrorism." That is slippery slope I'm referring to. This group does seem to be a bunch of dangerous nut jobs at the least though, so I can't argue that.

[nakattack]

you're right about the slippery slope i think in this day and age its sadly a reality of the world we live in. i have a hard time believing that the government would use this to jail anyone they seem fit. not because i think the government is a moral one but because its too disorganized to set up such a complex system. from what i have seen of government agencies its mostly a controlled chaos or not controlled in some instences. now if they do start taking people off the street because of they have weapons or are prepping then it'll be a whole different ball game.

[Klayton]

Curious, does the part they don't pay taxes and are on the welfare count as one the key points that make them terrorists? Or just a smear to blemish their image more?

Because if so, we got a helluva lot of welfare lazy butts that dont pay ANY taxes and cheat the system by living with the Daddy of their kids refusing to get married so they can have the government pay for their section 8 housing and yes, live on the welfare, all why Daddy is riding around on 20s.

Or do we add "gotcha" stuff anytime someone is labeled a terrorist now?
OH OH back in 83 I know for certain he had sex with his secretary too.
OH OH and back in 86 I saw him jay walk several times...

Just saying...

[Gonzo]

Look, these guys are TERRORISTS! Plain and simple!

The KING is the sovereign.
These dangerous, treasonous nut-jobs, are talking about *individual freedom* - coming up with their own laws, printing currency, not paying the tax... Freaks like Jefferson, Henry, Franklin should all be rounded up!

And you're right, they aren't really *militia* types, like that dangerous Washington fellow...


G

[Klayton]

Look, these guys are TERRORISTS! Plain and simple!

The KING is the sovereign.
These dangerous, treasonous nut-jobs, are talking about *individual freedom* - coming up with their own laws, printing currency, not paying the tax... Freaks like Jefferson, Henry, Franklin should all be rounded up!

And you're right, they aren't really *militia* types, like that dangerous Washington fellow...

G

Well I understand the hatred many of us have with these people, but lets think OUTSIDE the box for a minute.

1) your upset because they talk about individual freedom... This is nothing more than our God given rights; as stated in the Bill of Rights, we just put it on paper. So that nullifies that part as in itself making them terrrorists...

2) make their own laws, organizations and home owners associations, etc etc all across America make up laws or "by-laws". It is nothing more than rules that are strictly enforced in that community... soooo your point is?

3) printing currency, although the FED (which is not a full government department btw) and congress made them the full responsible party for all US currency (private and public) many "companies" printed money, this was done as pay vouchers to be used as cash at the local "company" store. California recently is marked as printing I.O.U.s again another form of currency. So what do you care if Bob uses local currency as a modified trade and barter system? OH YA, they hide their actions from big brother and avoid paying ANOTHER tax oh ok, ya thats terrorist actions, better go dig up my grandma and arrest her for trading a year supply of eggs for 4 spring piglets every year since the beginning of time. GRANDMA YOU ARE A TERRORIST

4) finally you state they arent really *militia* types, so they pose no immediate threat to you, your neighbors, or the government,,, so once again, so your point is???

People we gotta be careful about throwing around this word TERRORISTS, after all the Jews thought that everything was OK when the powers to be said they were rounding them up for THEIR safety...

[Gonzo]

Umm, you missed my sarcasm.;)

Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry are actually two of my personal favorites. The King just didn't use the word "terrorists". The overwhelming majority of people seeking "Sovereign Citizenship", are a close parallel to the Founding Fathers. It's only a very, very few that cause trouble.

Sorry if I ruffled feathers...
:D
G

[Mannlicher]

Sovereign Citizens are, for the most part, a group of nutters. Sorry, thats how I see 'em.

[Grand58742]

Before this discussion continues, I'd like to remind everyone several of our members have had some serious run ins with this group in particular. Apparently they aren't a bunch of roses in the garden of poo and completely innocent. They can be some nasty folks not above murder, extortion, threats and other acts which would cause us all to squint our eyes and respond with an "ohh."

While the article doesn't give exact details as to what or why the raid was conducted, be reminded the apparent reason isn't always given in the press. But if it was bad enough to bring in the feds, who knows what it could have been. But from doing a bit of research myself, this group has some fairly bad habits not limited to just the few lone wolfs that fail to register their vehicle or don't pay taxes. I mean, murdering a police officer just because your vehicle didn't have proper registration? Yeah, that sounds about right... :rolleyes:

So just a friendly reminder some folks have a better insight of this group than we do looking from the outside and at sporadic news articles. And we should listen to what they say.