Question for Miltary and LEO's past and present.

[WiseOwl]

I have been thinking about this a lot in my time away from the boards (new job, working like a madman) and I want you folks opinion and comments

In a Fan situation or Civil Unrest, (you know what I mean) what percentage of the LEOs and Mil folks would actually fight for the people, the good cause and The Constitution? I know a lot of people say they will and I know of the Oath Keepers, but would you really say "the hell with the ______, they are wrong and I need to use my skills and training to fight for whats right"? Could I trust you to fight along me, or assist in protecting me and my family in a crisis with your skills, training, and knowledge?

I know "some" people of authority are the kind that were picked on when they were young, abuse power and kiss so much behind that they will do what they have to do for attention. They love to beat people and use their power to be "bigger than the average man".

Would someone you know turn to the Dark side? Have they already?

Is this type of fan situation talked about off the record amongst the LEOs and MIL when they are just hanging out? Do they talk about how they will not let it happen in their community and how they will keep order without turning to the darkside?

I wonder this because next year is a pivotal year in our history, I truly believe it is. I really want to believe its going to be business as usual and life as usual. But something in my thoughts bothers me. I know that going up against the dad trying to do whatever to feed his kids, or the gangbanger that has no "manners" and will do what they have to, or the super RAMBO type that has the toys and IS crazy enough to use them.

I think I have a good chance against "these" type of folks. But the "trained" one with the resources and toys to do what they are either told to or their "ego" tells them to, those are the ones that make me nervous. I know a good percentage of LEOs and MILs think they are super people and they steroid up and go out and beat and break the law. There have been people in authority throughout history to do this.


I really want some of you folks' input on this. I know there are some real good folks here, I know because a lot of you sound that way through your posts. Haven't met any of you in the real world, but I get the idea that most of you are truly good people.

If you are "person of authority", would you protect your own, protect whats right or do what you are told and give in to the facist, militarism rule that will end this civilization?

[Klayton]

OBSERVE & LISTEN, do NOT rush into things after the SHTF. Buy your time, see what and who people really are.

Not a day goes by that I don't see a city cop break the law. Granted its usually a minor thing, running stop signs, excessive speeding in a 15mph residential zone (all without lights on, thus no real emergency, just think they can do whatever they want). I even filed a complaint about the cheating deputy at our monthly townhall meeting, to which I was told "How do you know he is cheating." Well let's see, I bet his wife doesn't know he makes a booty call atleast twice a week to the single lady living on my street. In his "official" marked squad car, in uniform. Only to later find out that was not to smart a thing to do, as nothing happened to the officer (obviously) and I have been pulled over for speeding numerous times afterwards, and running stop signs myself, all of which I NEVER DO!!! To the point that the local judge, after the third "not guilty" plea by me in a month's time had a talk with the chief of police and the harassment stopped. Cops are merely a necessary evil as far as I am concerned, and after the poop hits the fan, I can imagine the majority of them turning into even bigger bullies... Just my humble opinion...

**steps off soap box**

[tech]

... I know a good percentage of LEOs and MILs think they are super people and they steroid up and go out and beat and break the law...

I have to take exception to this segment of your post, WO. While I agree that there are some that would take advantage of the opportunity if it presented itself, I disagree that a "good percentage" are routine abusers. I feel it may seem that way, but remember that the ones that stand out get all of the media attention, be it good or (usually) bad.

To address some of your other points...conversations did occur regarding illegal orders and how they would respond if they were issued. Most of the Marines under my charge indicated the desire to do what was right, even at their own peril. A large percentage of them, I believe, would have done so if the need had arisen.
LEOs talk of similar issues, and the ones I associate with tend to fall in the honorable category. IMHO, there would be a higher percentage of federal "authorities" than LEOs and military that would take advantage of a breakdown in organized authority, especially in the larger metropolitan areas.

There will always be bad seeds...having good leaders tends to reduce their affect on unit conduct and morale.

As a former "person of authority," protecting your own so that you may protect what is right was part of life. Following lawful orders was included in that...breaking the law was not.

[WiseOwl]

I have to take exception to this segment of your post, WO. While I agree that there are some that would take advantage of the opportunity if it presented itself, I disagree that a "good percentage" are routine abusers. I feel it may seem that way, but remember that the ones that stand out get all of the media attention, be it good or (usually) bad.

Sorry, I didn't mean good as in a large portion, I used the wrong comparison word. I should have said some or few. My bad.

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Boy you know how to open a can don't you? so once again it's bash time for locals, feds and military huh. Guess i'm a bad guy huh, might be right, may be time for me to go cause this is becoming more and more weekly
step up become one and find out whats really being discussed or change it or maybe learn some skills from the training
I'm gonna leave you with this - quit worrying bout stuff you cant control anyway and focus on you, no one really knows anything, it's all a guess, prep for the worst and pray for the best

[rice paddy daddy]

I've been out for 41 years now, so things may have changed, but at least back then a soldier was sworn to obey legal orders of his officers, and to refuse to obey illegal orders. Due to the Mi Lai situation, we were well trained in what constituted an illegal order.
Vague answer? Yes, it will all depend on individual cases.

[610Alpha]

quit worrying bout stuff you cant control anyway and focus on you, no one really knows anything, it's all a guess, prep for the worst and pray for the best

Well said MIO

[50BMG]

Prep for the worst, lay low and watch what people do. Biggest worry is the the people who think prepping mostly includes guns and ammo and not much else. Trouble makers will be hunted at night.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

Ibreaking the law was not.

Most of LEO and Military are good people, are their bad apples there sure.. in every group there are bad apples. But most of the bad apples are at the top not boots that will be on the ground.

But what about laws that are not "Lawful" (not sure the term). The biggest criminals in history have been at the tops of governments passing laws that are not really "lawful". Germany had a law that Jews' doors must be marked, that they must wear a star of David while in public and many other laws that enabled many unlawful actions.

Here in the U.S., our troops and LEO have taken an oath not the current Laws but instead the "Constitution". That is what we should be worried about not current LAWS... It is those current LAWS that are unconstitutional there for unlawful.

WE must remind the LEO and Mil that The Oath is to the Constitution not any government, nor government official, nor political office, nor any Superior! And they must sit down and read the Constitution now while heads are still some what clear. Also read the Oath Keepers' Oath. Sit and read each one and think about what is written in them what they actually mean and why they are important. And spend some time thinking about it. Remember that what ever you are willing to do to any other person; your boss is willing to do to you and your family. Read the Constitution and read the “Oath Keeper’s Oath” and decide for yourself what lines you are willing to cross now before you have to do it in a high stress environment.

This thinking before a problem arises is important... If the National Guard Reservist and LEO had done this before Katrina do you think they would have taken weapons from law abiding citizens? Leaving them defenseless and unable to help defend others, I doubt it.

Why do you train to clear a malfunction in a firearm before you ever have a malfunction? So that when the event happens in a high stress condition you know what to do without thinking because you will not have a clear head to do the thinking at that point. Read and seek the knowledge to understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights, now so you will have a mental marker to see a line that normally you would not notice under high stress conditions. This mental training is important. And even it is “logically” the right thing to do for the safety of the people you must think before you act. The Jews were rounded up in Germany for “their own safety” and many of the troops believed at first they where doing good for Jews by taking them to a “safe” camp but you as troop do not know the plan only the ones at the very top know the plan. Most of the troops in Germany were PAWNS and would not have followed the orders had they known the plan.

DON’T let them say you were a PAWN in their plan against us. We must get “re-education” put together for the boots that may be on the ground. And Oath Keepers should part of the Re-Education plan.

[WiseOwl]

Boy you know how to open a can don't you? so once again it's bash time for locals, feds and military huh. Guess i'm a bad guy huh, might be right, may be time for me to go cause this is becoming more and more weekly
step up become one and find out whats really being discussed or change it or maybe learn some skills from the training
I'm gonna leave you with this - quit worrying bout stuff you cant control anyway and focus on you, no one really knows anything, it's all a guess, prep for the worst and pray for the best

Good points man. You know, when I thought about posting this the other day I wondered "man, if Matt lived by me, he is one I would LOVE to sit down and ask some of these questions to, in person".

I didn't mean any harm by this nor was I imposing any bashing. I hope that yall did not take it that way, if so, I apologize for how I worded it. I only have one friend that is LEO and he is a good dude. I judge a lot of LEOs by his outlook, the ole country boy do whats right and do your job fair outlook. My good friend and mentor is retired SEAL and NSA, I look at a lot of his opinions and stories as the gospel, as well as I do with guys like MIA, Klayton, LD3, PS, etc. Understand, I do analyze things like a computer, and this was just something that passed by my "ticker".

Trust me , this issue is on the least of my worries spectrum, however, I just wanted to throw it out there.

I know that we all prep, some waaay more than others, but I truly dont look to the future as doom and gloom, I think God has a better plan for us. Even though sometimes I slip into a daydream thats a Patriots, Lights Out, Normal, etc type of thought, I know reality and that is how I roll.....:P

Also, Matt, if I was 18 again, brother, I would join the service in a heartbeat. I know I could have been a real good one. So now, all I can do is try to learn, earn and work hard. Just like we always say, the mental trumps the physical, I am about maxed out ready for some physical.

[MustangGal]

If your community has a ride-along or a reserve program, I would highly recommend you get involved. It will give you a balanced perspective when it comes to LEOs (Just because an officer is not running lights and siren - doesn't mean he or she isn't on the way to a call. Some areas are MUCH easier to navigate quickly w/o L&S. There are also important calls where you don't want to announce your presence until the very last moment - ie. domestic) It will also give you a better insight into what things are REALLY like in your area. I became a cop at 30 and let me tell you, I got an education. Let me just say, it was an eye opening experience. Of all the officers that I worked with, several were just plain butts, but when push came to shove there was only one or two I didn't feel like I could trust.

[slingshot]

A police department recruits from the population around them. A department is a cross section of their society. You're going to have bad cops as long as departments recruit from the human race. Luckily, you'll also have some good cops because there are good people in society. In a SHTF scenario, the bad ones will take advantage of the situation, e.g. New Orleans after Katrina. I'm more concerned about the military being used against the citizens by the feds. I would like to think our military would be a little tempered about being used that way. What is really scary to me is the thoughts of foreign troops being used against us. They would have no compunction about running over us, and we wouldn't have a chance.

[Bill Foster]

Yup, you did open that can didn't you?
I come from a family of cops and military and several of my close high school friends became police officers after high school. When you get a group of them together, what they speak of (brag about) is who they beat the crap out of that week. One of my co-workers moved to a neighborhood of police officers the same age as he was (early 30s). When the neighborhood had a cookout, the cops got into their own group and guess what they talked about? You guessed it, the fights they got into that week and how they beat the crap out of someone.
Third story. A manager where I once worked was fired for verbally abusing customers and co-workers. He was on a downward alcohol spiral at the time. His wife left him, he has no visitation with his children because of alleged abuse. After his third DUI, he got his life pointed in the correct direction and he went to a new career. Police Officer. He has risen to the rank of Sergent of a local police department. It's good he got the job, because our company will not allow anyone to work there with ONE DUI, not to mention 3. Maybe he has corrected his ways of verbally and physically abusing others as an officer of the law. Or now, he can do it without being fired. I say, many people gravitate to that position of authority so they can wield almost unchecked authority. Or not.

I'm sorry for those who are in law enforcement that are there for the sake of helping others.

[sabretech2001]

I see this discussion has taken the usual turn with all the LEO supporters closing ranks and the non-LEOs expressing concern/criticism.

Here's the deal, folks: of course there will be some who join a police force who shouldn't be trusted with with a water pistol, much less an actual firearm. Our system allows people to choose their job, and that level of free choice guarantees that some who shouldn't be cops will make it through training and onto the street. That's not the main problem here, and I would be the last person to advocate any restriction on an individual's free choice.

The main problem is after an incident. First thing, the officer who goes over the line is placed on "administrative leave" and gets full pay during that time. You and me? Welcome to jail. Then, a few days later there's a public announcement that the officer's actions were 'within departmental protocols". You and me? Our wives/family would be selling/pawning stuff to make bail. The DA will decline to press charges against the offending Officer (or worse yet, would ludicrously undercharge him), yet would trip over themselves to file charges against We The Employers whilst piously declaiming to any and all media about needing to take a tough stance against law-breakers. And even if it is well known within the Department that Officer X is wrong, his colleagues (that's you guys in uniform) will stand with him. I once had a friendly cup of coffee with a serving Officer and he told me that such persons would find themselves working midnights in the bad part of the jurisdiction. When I said that the guy still had the Shield and the gun as well as the Job, he looked at me like I was speaking Martian.

So, Wise Owl, if you live in a city or built-up area, you're pretty much screwed. No city cop is going to endanger his paycheck over some silly Constituion thing. If you're further out in the sticks, you'll probably be OK, but if you happen upon a badge-heavy jerk, you can expect to be beaten/tased/shot while his colleagues stand there and do nothing. And all you LEO/LEO supporters? You reap what you sow, and too many years of sowing have gone by. The "us vs. them" mentality is going to reach up and bite you in the @ss. And quit referring to us as Civilians: so are you.

[WiseOwl]

I live in a town where we have 2 cops and a "supervisor". They go home at 10pm and then the county patrols, mainly the main highway to catch idiots speeding. One good thing ( I hope) is that my self sufficient neighbors on the corner, know the cops by first and nickname.

When I first moved here 3 years ago, I introduced myself to the cop at the Dollar General one day. Told him I was new, where I lived and that I was basically a normal person. I asked about the area and crime. He said " there used to be a number of break ins but all of that stopped right before Obama was elected, everyone went out and bought guns"
I thought, " I am going to like it here"

Again, my direction with this post was not to stir the pot (which it seems I have) but to ask "do MIL and LEOs talk about what they will do during a collapse or event."

I would hope people would conjure up that ole American Spirit and come together "if" some crisis occurred. But, after not only watching what happened during Katrina, but hearing first hand from people that were in the thick of it, I know the tides could change faster than an instant.

I know the best thing I would do is ride it out, like someone stated. The wait and see approach. I have no retreat, I have no group, All I have is my plums and my word, and my preps. I know a lot lately I have been seeing a ton of articles on Military training for civil unrest, unlawful arrests, etc. Ya know, you see so much of it on the net, it starts to seep into your thoughts. But then, you dont see anything like that happened in your own communities, so the thoughts fade.

Honestly, I have started to remove myself from the conspiracy theorists and the aluminum sombreros and live in real life. But, sometimes, this stuff put out there seems so logical, it brings me back to that way of thinking.