What do you do in a situation like this?

[WiseOwl]

http://news.yahoo.com/swat-teams-shooting-marine-causes-outrage-172246257.html

I just read this article and it really has me thinking. Putting what this man did or didn't do aside, what would you do in this situation......

"you are just sitting down to dinner with your wife and kid, or you are lying in bed watching tv, with her, she gets up to get something and she sees some men in the yard in tactical gear surrounding the house, you go and grab your whatever weapon and stand guard waiting for the unknown. You have no idea if they are friend, foe or ______. They do not announce their arrival they just kick in the door. There you are standing with your weapon protecting the things that you care for the most and would protect with your life, and you are shot 71 times with only 21 hitting."

I know this man may or may have not been doing what he was accused of, that is not the reason on my post. Is this what it has came to? No knock searches and "military style" raids?

I know here at my house, I don't live in a neighborhood but I live on a street with about 10 houses all with acre+ lots. You can hear noises 2 houses down easily because we have no trees in between our homes. I have jumped up with my shotgun because I heard a door slam, realizing once I got outside it was the neighbors coming in at 2am 2 houses down. Thought it was my car.

Different scenario, in the "now". My wife is washing dishes and sees a couple of guys with rifles in all camo walking though my back yard. I go grab my "weapon" and go out the back door to confront them. Because it is my property, I have the right to know what they are doing. Because of the 2nd Amendment, I also have the right to point my shotgun at them while I ask. I am then told "hey man sorry, we were hunting over here and accidentally came out of the woods over there and had to cut back around your fence, we apologize." This happened to me at my old house but at that time I only had a baseball bat.

In the PAW, its a WHOLE different situation. Then it becomes a life or death situation. What do you do? Do you let them "cut through" or do you confront them with questions? Maybe they are friendly, maybe they are hostile?

Say this whole "military can make arrests anywhere in the world" thing passes through congress here in the next couple of days. I read about it online but dont believe it until I hear better sources talking of it. But, say you are minding your own business, on a "survival site" and you are flagged for maybe saying a few words in a few phrases that add up. You may be talking harmlessly, but you are flagged for the combination. Can you become a "target"?

As I read this story again, I realized that if a team of "tacticians" were surrounding my house I would have no reason to grab all of my guns and load up because I have done nothing wrong, or at least I thought. I can just sit on the couch and hope all goes calm, or would the "gestapo" kick in my door and think I posed a threat and shot me in front of my family because maybe I looked nervous.

I know some of you guys are LEO and military, what are your thoughts on this?
I would also like to know what most of you board folks would do in a situation like this. Do you react or deactivate and flip the coin?

[Grinnan Barrett]

If you are out gunned you had better try to live to play another day. "they will ply this gun from my cold dead hands" type of mentality doesn't work real well in real life. A full scale assault on your home would come so quickly that you will not have time to even react. The other thing is why would they want to raid your home to begin with?

[WiseOwl]

Exactly GB. As stated before, the Rambo mentality will get you killed.

[tech]

Anyone threatening my family (or my property, for that matter) on my property or anywhere i am legally allowed to be is, by LA law, fair game:

RS 14:19 C. A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is in a place where he or she has a right to be shall have no duty to retreat before using force or violence as provided for in this Section and may stand his or her ground and meet force with force.

I can pretty much guarantee there will be some open microphones so that what happens will be transmitted over the air...and cutting commercial power won't stop it :)

[Matt In Oklahoma]

The reason this is such an inflamatory issue is because numerous things have gone wrong. SWAT is a tool. They will do what is needed just as the Marines he served is a tool that will do what is needed. When well trained forces pick up weapons and meet someone will most likley die.
The # of rounds is unimportant and was explained with the use of suppresive fire. Emotions are in the way of clear thinking on this issue.
Everyones mad at the team but why, they didnt make the decision to go in, they are the tool, who made the decision? What judge signed the warrant and based on what? What adminstrator took the evidence into the court and made the final call? The reason there is nothing being brought to the public is most likely it's an ongoing case and they can't. I dunno whos right or wrong and wont get into it.
Now as far as what you are to do.
LD3 and a whole lot of others have talked about this numerous times that YOU can not do this alone. The reason a team was/is used is because they have the advantage of numbers and training and resources.
If you think you can fight an (fiction) MZB gang which probably contains veterans which is where (real) OMGs came from to begin with that have their stuff together when they hit the property line you are sadly msitaken. You will die in vain and that assualt whatever super duper thingie that cost a gazillion dollars will still be cold when they take it from you. This point is driven home by the article that states his AR was still on safe, he failed to work thru the OODA loop and engage or surrender and it cost him his life. I find this hard to believe from a combat Marine but we will go with what they said.
No one can walk around in condition red all the time, it's not possible even in the war zone. You will burn out in hours. This is why Guard duty is only a matter of hours.

MAIN POINT
Get this thru your mind, no matter who is coming thru the doorway if YOU pick up a WEAPON then you are commited to a fight to the DEATH. There is no "oh they will know i'm .......... and everything wil be cool". They knew they were fighting a combat Marine if there intell was worth anything to start with and seeing one with an AR he has killed with before probably scared the snot out of them.
If I, a friend, shows up at your door and you meet me pointing a rifle, I will engage and I will kill you or I will die because you shot me. Get that thru your heads that if you pick a weapon someone will die. If thats to much then get rid of them. There is no oh I will show it to them and they will quit and just give up or we can talk Bravo Sierra. There is no oh I will shoot to wound them in the leg or whatever Bravo Sierra.
MINDSET is everything, you pick up a weapon you are commited to KILL. If you have any other thought in your mind then you are WRONG. If 2 parties pick up weapons and meet then someone is gonna get KILLED.

[Not_Yet_Prepped]

who made the decision? What judge signed the warrant and based on what? What adminstrator took the evidence into the court and made the final call?

Very good point... And I also question modern tactics in which a search warrant is executed. It endangers the occupants and the people serving the warrant usually way more than warranted. Remember these people are still “innocent” and nothing has been proven but their rights and safety are thrown out the window because they are believed that they could be guilty.

MINDSET is everything, you pick up a weapon you are commited to KILL. If you have any other thought in your mind then you are WRONG. If 2 parties pick up weapons and meet then someone is gonna get KILLED.

Remember the SWAT came in weapons drawn without warning... Who has commited to kill first? We are not in a war zone... The "good guys" should not be Breaking down a door with weapons drawn without warning and I am not talking about a few second warning before they break down the door. They should be knocking on the door and serving the warrent to an "innocent" citizen not raiding a drug dealers compound. That leads to someone (on one side or the other, maybe even both) in getting hurt.

The other thing is why would they want to raid your home to begin with?

There are many reasons why they make (and have made many) mistakes when raiding a home, knowingly and unknowingly. Read the papers and you will find raids that went wrong and innocent people ended up hurt and/or dead:

Wrong Address (Simple Paper Work Typo)
Wrong Address (Assault Leader went to "Pine Ridge" instead of "Pine Road" or got wrong house number 232 instead of 323)
Old Address (old Renter moved and new resident was raided)
Wrong Info (Witness Lies or Poor Detective work)




The simple fact is that you are awaken from a slumber with someone in all black breaking down your door. What do you think you would do? Is that pistol on your bedside table? Do you pick it up? You have a few seconds (max) to decide to pick up the weapon and then a few more seconds before you have to shoot or you are dead? What do you do? Pick it up and die because you had it and the well trained "awake" SWAT team decides it was justified. Dont pick it up and die because it was a criminal looking for violence?

I have not read the whole report but I did not see that he shot back or even "shoulder and point" the rifle, again I have not read the report but if someone was coming in your home you have not had a chance to determine if it was a full on assault (police or gang) or just a random act of violence by 1 or 2 criminals...

Do you assume it is an assault and lie down automatically, maybe die because you could have defended yourself from a criminal?

or do you assume that you will live and they are random criminals and pickup that weapon to defend yourself?

Either chose could be wrong? Are you saying you are going to assume that it is a full on assault and your best chance is to live is not trying to defend your family? That could lead in you watching your wife and daughter raped while you are forced to watch then they kill you all... Remember you dont have time to make an educated decision, Pick up or dont pick up the gun all you know is a guy in black with a gun is breaking down the door? (That does not seem like the actions of a Lawful police force and I would assume they are criminals... Guess I would be dead too. Maybe I no longer live in a lawful society)

[WiseOwl]

Good points Matt, really good points. You broke that down for me in the email as well. Thanks.

And I think NYP echoed my point. Someone, hell anyone kicks in my door, I am grabbing a weapon ready to defend. Lets play the hypothetical game, SWAT with wrong address ( which I know has happened before and ended with the same result) and they mean to go to your neighbors and come in your house, You draw, and you are laid down.

Now change the coin, and its "bad guys" or "robbers" and you save yours of your families life or you possessions and you are the hero.


Now it all changes and you are "in the wrong" and know it, and they kick in your door, you either say "ok ok, I give up" or you draw and get put down. And now I understand why so many rounds were shot.

I wasn't defending or crucifying this particular guy, because from reading I understand that he actually was doing some dirt. I just feel very vulnerable to death because of that side of the coin saying if I draw or engage, I am toast.