So the electric company called the other day...

[trkarl]

A funny thing happened the other day. I got a call from the electric company that said they see that I have a solar electric system and am backfeeding into the grid illegally and need to either fill out the agreement or shut the system off or they will disconnect me. They said I am making my meter spin backwards.

I called them up and said that would be a neat trick since my system isn't connected to the grid. I said they can come out and have a look at it any time they want to. They scheduled for the following day.

Well the supervisor and a lady came out for a visit. I got to give them a good education of a stand alone solar system and how it works HAHA!! They were really nice and asked a lot of questions because they had never seen one before.

We ran different loads and watched the battery voltage go up and down. I asked how is it spinning my meter backwards and who said it was? He said no one saw the meter going backwards it's just that the power software that reads the meter every day couldn't figure out my usage and was trying to estimate the usage. He said this is the first sign of power theft which they have a big problem with. So someone investigates and sees the panels and thinks I am backfeeding.

Well on sunny days most all of my power comes from the panels. Then on not so sunny days it comes from the grid so that was confusing the computer which looks for steady usage. Seems like they need to tweak that software LOL!!

[Matt In Oklahoma]

might even check further into that because i believe they are required to buy the power you produce.
but since it's stand alone thats funny stuff, laziness, the meters running backwards but we didnt actually look, what a farce

[trkarl]

They are required to buy it back but then they have a lot of power to come and inspect it when they want and to shut it off anytime they want. Also they charge more for hookup than the regular customer pays and also more per kwh you buy from them than the regular customer.

Another draw back is then the inverter is subject to grid surges and fluctuations which can damage it and the inverter is running at full capacity or close to it much of the day when it is hot. Heat kills electronics and these things create a lot of it.

A friend of mine installed a 10.2 kw system that is grid tied. It consists of 2 Sunny Boy 5000 inverters and 2 Sunny Island 5048u inverters like the one I have. He said his garage now feels like an oven during the day.

I like to keep my stuff as cool as possible so hopefully it will live longer. I know the way I have it hooked up is the least "cost effective" but it is the most "self sufficient" way. Most people with grid tied / battery backup systems rarely ever just run off their batteries and have no idea how they would do if the grid goes down. I know what my system is capable of because I live with it everyday. :)

[Matt In Oklahoma]

Thats awesome!

[Okie]

if you had the power for it, and some spare coin, it would be cool to convert a portion of your garage to a walk-in style industrial refrigerator. that cool environment would probably SIGNIFICANTLY increase the life of your components, and also free up lost power. heat=power lost to create the heat, and heat also increases resistance, which saps power as well. your system would become more efficient- might even offset the cost of running the refrigeration equipment if you do everything right and plan it out.

[monkeybird]

Takari - can you post pictures of your system. I'd love to see your set up.

[trkarl]

if you had the power for it, and some spare coin, it would be cool to convert a portion of your garage to a walk-in style industrial refrigerator. that cool environment would probably SIGNIFICANTLY increase the life of your components, and also free up lost power. heat=power lost to create the heat, and heat also increases resistance, which saps power as well. your system would become more efficient- might even offset the cost of running the refrigeration equipment if you do everything right and plan it out.

That is a great idea. Problem is the garage is not big enough. I have to fit my lawn equipment trailer in there and everything is a tight squeeze. I am thinking of running one of those sanyo mini split ductless ac units for the garage but then I will need more panels.

There is always an excuse to expand the arrays, it is just convincing dw that we NEED to put another 4kw or so on the roof LOL.

If not a mini split then I would need to cut a hole in the wall and put in a window type unit. I'm not sure yet what I am going to do. I insulated the ceiling of the garage and put a floor up there to use for storage. I also insulated the garage door. All of that helped tremendously. Now it gets to around 88 - 90 in there by late afternoon when it used to get to 95 real quick in the heat. Every little bit helps.

[trkarl]

Takari - can you post pictures of your system. I'd love to see your set up.

The arrays



The system



Now I have this itch to put a tracker behind the big array with another 4 panels. I was thinking of putting the big array on a tracker but that thing would be too big. My wife doesn't want more on the roof.

[monkeybird]

WOW. Can you actually run your home on this set up? What about central air?

I really want to have everything solar - just can't get it started.

[barfife]

trkarl,
I have been reading books on solar power in an attempt to educate myself. don't know if or when i could actually afford it. Since you have practical day to day experience with living with one, can I please ask a couple of questions?

1) Could please list the equipment that you have?
2) Piece prices and good companies to deal with?
3) What type of equipment to start with?
4) What to avoid as a poor investment?
5) What all can you run with your system?
6) What would you have differently knowing what you know now?
7) Did you do your install your system yourself? If not, what did it cost to farm it out?

If i asked too many questions or got too personal, I apoligize. If you are not comfortable with sharing, I understand. Thanks for your time. Barfife

[1Admin]

Trk- we have a track rack for 6 of our KC130's. It's a Zomeworks tracker and it's been pretty much bulletproof. They have about doubled in price since 1999 when I bought this though.

What amp hour capacity are your batts? Looks like you are running a lot of input, what's your total wattage or did I miss it?

[trkarl]

WOW. Can you actually run your home on this set up? What about central air?
I really want to have everything solar - just can't get it started.

I can run anything in my home up to 5 kw. I have even ran my central ac on the batteries one July night last year to see what would happen. It discharged them about 50%. Drew 256 amp/hrs off the bank. It can run both well pumps at the same time. I just have to watch how loaded down I get the inverter. Also you don't want to put large loads on the batteries as that just lessens their life.

trkarl,
I have been reading books on solar power in an attempt to educate myself. don't know if or when i could actually afford it. Since you have practical day to day experience with living with one, can I please ask a couple of questions?

1) Could please list the equipment that you have?
2) Piece prices and good companies to deal with?
3) What type of equipment to start with?
4) What to avoid as a poor investment?
5) What all can you run with your system?
6) What would you have differently knowing what you know now?
7) Did you do your install your system yourself? If not, what did it cost to farm it out?

If i asked too many questions or got too personal, I apoligize. If you are not comfortable with sharing, I understand. Thanks for your time. Barfife

1) Large array: 12 BPSX3200 200 watt panels wired 3 strings of 4 panels
Outback combiner box and midnite solar 10 amp breakers.
4 awg cable from array to charge controller in garage. Approx 70'
Delta lightning arrestor in combiner box. Does it really work? I hope it is never tested.

Small array: 2 BP 585 and 4 BP 590 panels wired one series string.
Medium array: 6 BPSX175 NQ panels wired 2 strings of three into the same combiner as the small array.
Mixing panels this way only works correctly as long as the specs of the strings are as close to identical as possible.
One string of the BPSX175 panels has almost the exact same output in amps and volts as the string of the 590/585 panels.
8 awg cable from arrays to garage charge controller.
Total wattage all together 3980.

Inverter SMA Sunny Island 5048u. 5000 watts 48v. It can be overloaded for a short while without shutting down: 6500 watts 30min, 7200 watts 5min, 8400 watts 1min, but the step up transformer is only rated for 6000 watts.

http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/products/off-grid-inverters/sunny-island-5048-5048-us.html

Charge controllers:
Outback FlexMax 80 controlling the big array.

http://www.outbackpower.com/products/charge_controllers/flexmax/

Outback MX60 controlling the other arrays. (replaced by the FlexMax line)

Outback PSX240 transformer steps the 120 output of the inverter up to 240.

2 Reliance 10 circuit 30 amp transfer switches. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...1029_200321029

Generator cord wired into the transformer in order to plug into the transfer switches.
This was done for redundancy so I can use either the inverter or generator to plug into the transfer switch.

Midnite solar mini dc disconnect w/ 250 amp breaker.

http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=76&productCatName=Mini%20-%20DC%20Disconnect&productCat_ID=8

This is where the batteries, charge controllers, and inverter are all connected.


Trimetric 2020 battery monitor.

Battery life saver 48v desufator. Backwoodssolar.com tested it and says it works. Others say it voodoo. http://www.batterylifesaver.com/products/products.htm

Surrette 6cs17ps batteries in 48v configuration. http://surrette.com/pdf/6CS17P.pdf

Freas hydrometer to measure specific gravity in batteries.

Misc breaker boxes and breakers for the charge controllers and various gauges of cable to connect it all.

2) Stick with name brands like Xantrex ( now Schneider Electric) Outback, Midnite Solar, SMA and the likes.

3) Lowdown started a good thread about beginning your alternative energy journey. If you are serious about building a real system that is reliable then you need to " begin with the end in mind" to quote him. In other words, sit down and draw out on paper what you want to end up with even if it is a few years down the road. Build the system to be expandible.
As far as equipment goes spend (invest) the money on equipment that is meant to be the primary source of power in places where there is no grid. Cheap inverters from Sam's Club won't make it long term. They aren't meant to run 24/7.

4) Basically trying to cut corners. By this I mean like trying to save a few bucks by buying "Marine" deep cycle batteries instead of real deep cycle batteries. They just won't last. You get what you pay for.
Here is a good solar forum to get you started http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/index.php

5) answered above

6) Placed my arrays a little more strategically. Used ground mounts that can be adjusted up or down with the change in seasons to get the most output.

7) I installed everything myself. It is really not that hard to do.
You can never ask too many questions. It will save you from making huge costly mistakes sometimes so ask away. That's what forums like this are for. :)

[trkarl]

Trk- we have a track rack for 6 of our KC130's. It's a Zomeworks tracker and it's been pretty much bulletproof. They have about doubled in price since 1999 when I bought this though.

What amp hour capacity are your batts? Looks like you are running a lot of input, what's your total wattage or did I miss it?

Yeah I am sold on the Zomeworks trackers. I sure don't want any electric drive motors moving the tracker. Too many points of failure.
Batts are Surrette 6cs17ps 546 amp/hr. Array wattage total 3980.

So you have some panels fixed and some on the tracker? How much more total output do you estimate the tracker gives you compared to the fixed array?

[trkarl]

double tap

[1Admin]

We have our original 14 KC130's on a fixed rack. 6 more on a track rack (see pic at top of forum) and 4 more KC130's on a fixed rack on a side roof of an outbuilding that houses my battery bank, inverter, etc.

Our track rack actually sat unused (long story) for about a decade. It was interesting "yard art" to most people. It had rusted in several spots, both of the shock absorbers had rusted through, it was a mess. I started working on it, found a couple of similar shocks, ordered some new clips, etc and it worked fine.

The catalogs make it out like it makes small movements throughout the day. Maybe mine would have originally, but now it just makes one sudden move in the morning back to face east and one early afternoon to face west.

I'm not very scientific on my numbers, etc. Honestly I don't watch the input very closely. However since the time we put in the six on the track rack, we haven't even come close to running out of power. Wherein previously in the wintertime I would usually have to run the genset for a little while in the morning.