Generator Transfer Switch

[Klayton]

OK ALL, wife and I are debating two major purchases. I want a set of 5 solar panels and a small battery bank, she wants a diesel generator and a small battery bank. (In either case we will ultimately end with panels, generator, and battery bank.) :D

So, two fold request here. For SHTF would it be better to have a generator that we could crank up when the batteries went down and recharge them (also allow us to use high energy items when genny was running).

OR

Buy some panels and a battery bank??? Wife thinks the panels will be a 24/7 sign to all HERE WE ARE, the PREPPERS!! :mad:

The second part I need help on, can you have an electrician install the transfer switch (plus the battery bank) in a manner that allows the grid to keep the batteries at 100%, but when SHTF hit the transfer switch, and allow small load to run off batteries, but also allow the gen to now charge the batteries, since the Grid is down??? or am I dreaming of an impossible task?

((FYI, electricity is probably the only thing I NEVER tackle myself-scared to death of becoming a human bar-b-q)) :(

[eeyore]

For long term the solar will win out as renewable (or reasonably so). Generator is good alternative for short term.

If you want it to power everything in the house, you have to use the genny. You can do anything with automatic switch over and setting up run times. and such. As long as you have money you can do as much as you want.

[Bill Foster]

The automatic xfer switch is a good idea. A power company lineman once told me that during a power outage, folks crank up their generators, forget to disconnect their house from the grid, and power up the lines. The linemen get 120/220 down a line that they had disconnected on their end. He told me that there have been a few tragedies because of it. My work friend, knowing this, powered his generator up during an outage and couldn't understand why the generator kept going dead. He realized that HE forgot to disconnect and was, in essence, trying to power the entire neigborhood. Remember ESO, the Equipment is sometimes Smarter than the Operator.

[Bull]

Klayton, it shouldn't be any problem to wire your batteries to be powered from the grid, until it goes, and then switch over. A lot of systems exist, which work essentially the same way, and are used in industrial or other systems, where you require a constant power supply at all times. You can look up UPS(un-interupted power supply) online to get some basic understanding of them. You probably don't even need a setup that advanced though. You will basically have the grid power a battery charger, which charges the batteries. When the grid goes down, you flip the appropriate breakers, or switch, or however you set it up, and your charger is supplied from another source, solar or generator. If you are going to get an electrician to do it, then he should be able to go over the various options and equipment you can use to set it up how you want. You can do a lot of stuff, but as with anything, it can become expensive if you start getting real elaborate. What you are talking about is real basic though.
As far as the security aspect of it, I have mixed thoughts. Ideally you would have panels and generator because that is a more robust system and gives you more options. But if you have a generator you have to store fuel. That is now a more complex issue. I'm looking into getting a couple huge propane tanks to use for everything. I want to have the parts I need to convert a vehicle to run on it, which shouldn't be difficult. People do that now with LNG because it is cheaper than gas. They have propane refrigerators that are evidently very efficient. I am researching that. And of course the generator could be set to run on the propane. If this type of thing is an option, you may look into it. My thoughts are that a giant propane tank is harder to steal, the fuel doesn't go bad, so storage is easy, it seems to be relatively cheap compared to diesel and gas, and various other reasons. Of course, it is a large bomb, and you may have a shootout with the Zombies, so that is a drawback. You could easily enclose it with blocks and cement though.
Security wise, I think if people get close enough to realize there are solar panels, they are going to see other stuff, even if the panels weren't there, and come investigating anyways. So my thought is to build everything and set it up in a way that it is so difficult for people to get to, they aren't going to steel it or brake it before they become dead. However, if you just want to be as low key as possible, you still may be able to do solar, if you just get creative, and keep it from sitting right there on the roof for all to see. I thought of an easy way to have a panel track the sun, without using any electricity, so you could get more from it, and wouldn't be limited by the direction you house is facing. If you are interested I'll explain it on a different post or something. I have to be careful because I am very long winded. Zombie proofing you power supply can be done in a lot of ways. Of course this depends on your homestead, but I don't think security reasons should deter you from getting solar or whatever else you want. Maybe security concerns will just make it so that you have to do some other stuff along with the install. I have to say, I feel that unless you can store a ton of fuel and extra parts, oil, filters, etc to maintain and run a generator, alternative energy seems better to me.

[trkarl]

The second part I need help on, can you have an electrician install the transfer switch (plus the battery bank) in a manner that allows the grid to keep the batteries at 100%, but when SHTF hit the transfer switch, and allow small load to run off batteries, but also allow the gen to now charge the batteries, since the Grid is down??? or am I dreaming of an impossible task?

If you install a manual transfer switch like I have you would have the inverter powering the "generator" side of the switch. You would have the grid -or- generator powering the inverter which has a charger built in. The inverter has a transfer circuit inside which cuts to battery power when the grid fails. In essence a gigantic UPS.

Then with the grid down you fire up the genny and the inverter/charger charges the bank and powers the loads from the genny until you shut off the genny. Then it powers from the bank.

A switch like this for example:

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-Transfer-Switch-Kit/dp/B000BQN4T2

is extremely easy to install. Just watch the videos

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/

This is how my system is set up. I did it myself and you can too. I can power my inverter from the grid or genny and charge the bank. Also solar charges the bank.

Inside of my inverter:


Bottom left the green-white-black in the middle is wired to a plug which plugs into the grid through an outlet or into the genny. The inverter will pass through ac to the loads and use the excess to charge the batteries. Does this help answer your questions?

[Klayton]

WOW thanks guys, and yes the more zombie proofing the better for me (we unfortunately live in suburbia).

I was thinking of mounting the panels on a ground mount hidden from view by a privacy fence, but the power cord from panels to battery bank would be about 50 feet (to avoid the house shading the panels), would that be too long of a connection?

@trkarl is that set up in your battery bank shelter or inside your house? I was wondering if I could put that stuff in my garage (for more security) and the battery bank outdoors in a very small (thus less noticeable) shelter...

Finally, could you guys with true experience break it down to the simplest terms, what pieces do I need to buy, and any particular brands/features to look for or to avoid?

(we played with walmart inverter in the past with a very crappy solar panel we got on craig's list, we powered my daughter's friend's tree house with it-LOL-that is the limit of my solar experience)

[Klayton]

@Bull: I forgot to mention, I too will be going to all propane (if we EVER get enough saved up for a farm). Unfortunately, the city codes where I live forbid any permanently stored propane tanks. I do have 5 of the mini-tanks, for a back up stove fuel, secured in the garage.

[trkarl]

The entire set up is in my garage. You want the bank as close to the inverter as possible. Low voltage dc takes a lot of amps to power larger ac loads. Long wire runs = voltage drop which you want to avoid as much as possible.

Pieces you need to buy:

Inverter/charger preferably 48v. A wise man once said "Begin with the end in mind". You'll figure this out if you start playing with 12v and then try to power a large ac load LOL.

Brands ... XW6048 or look at Outback inverters. Mine is a SunnyIsland 5048U. Get a true sinewave.
Get the biggest one you can. You'll thank yourself later when you expand your loads.
Some use Magnum inverters

If u need 240v then the XW puts it out. So does some of the Magnums. Otherwise you need a step up transformer or a second inverter to "stack with the first. Mine is a PSX 240 transformer.

Reliance transfer switches. Generator cord with 30 amp twist lock. One end gets wired to the Inverter or transformer. The other plugs into the transfer switch.
A second generator cord for the genny which gives redundancy if the inverter fails. You can plug directly to the transfer switch.

Good set of batteries. Golf cart batteries are a good start. I would go with Trojan or Surrette 6v L-16 batteries. A good compromise between real off grid batteries like http://www.hupsolarone.com/ or Surrette series 5000 batteries.

Generator. Preferably a low rpm Diesel. But that would probably be overkill if $$$ are a consideration as they are made for primary power generation. I have a Honda EU2000i and this http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...duct_8792_8792

For solar you then need the panels and charge controllers. Outback CC or XW CC are a couple. Mine are Outback, MX 60 and Flexmax 80.

But the genny , battey bank, and inverter would be a great start for shorter term grid interuptions.

These are the basic parts. Many other smaller parts will be needed like breakers, cable etc.

[Klayton]

@trkarl: am I reading that right, one battery is almost $3,000 ???? How many of those bad boys do I need?

[Bull]

My experience is with larger, industrial systems, so I can't add anything to trkarl's post. I just have a small Honda at home that I hook up when needed, and store fuel, which I rotate for now. I will need to look into the specifics about components when I actually outfit the new place with a system. If you keep it all in the garage, then you will only need to Zombie proof the panels, and that shouldn't be too bad. I would just say that once you get set up, get some extra terminals and the little things like that to have spares. It would suck to have problems because down the road you need a $1.50 battery terminal or butt connector. If you use lead acid batteries, stock up on distilled water or have a plan to distill what you need. If you are in an area that has cold winters, and your batteries will be in an unheated garage or something, fully charged batteries deal with the cold better. Also, lead acid batteries release hydrogen gas while charging, although a small amount, so keep that in mind. Hope I helped.

[trkarl]

@trkarl: am I reading that right, one battery is almost $3,000 ???? How many of those bad boys do I need?

You must mean the 950 amp/hr 12v HUP battery. For a 24v system you would need 2 or 4 for a 48v system. The same capacity using golf cart batteries would require 4 parallel strings which means 4 times as many cells to maintain. These usually last around 3-5 years.

The Surrette L-16 6v batteries you would need 2 parallel strings for similar capacity. Also they last usually 6-8 yrs.

http://surrette.com/pdf/S-600.pdf?phpMyAdmin=0610e516bf803196b5feee0b1ad65c08&phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6

Some people get more time out of their banks and some get less. It depends how they are treated and how deep you discharge them.

These are 3k for a reason. Keep your dod below 20%, this is where system sizing is very important, and these batteries should last around 20+ yrs.

Now if you are planning for shtf or inflation or what have you then factor in the price or even availability of batteries in 5+ yrs. If your batteries would be floating most of the time and only used for emergency's then I would say go at least with the L-16 size 6v Surrettes. It's a good compromise.

http://surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable

The price of metals is going through the roof and lead right along with it. Also batteries like anything else, you get what you pay for.

My 48v and 12v Surrette banks together were 6k. But they should last between 15 -20 yrs. My batteries are Surrette 6cs17ps.